Newbie GM looking for PC-related advice

[Dr.FunLove]

@Sanctaphrax
I agree with you on the encouraging part - the book, as I alluded to, definitely wants you to be mint-choclate chip or rainbow sherbert versus vanilla (mmm...ice cream). I haven't actually had the fortune of playing a mortal at a high refresh so I couldn't say if they work or not. I will say though the next time the opprotunity comes up and if I have the right concept/game for it, I will definitely give it a try - thanks for the inspiration.

@Vairelome
Interesting idea. Though is extra refresh going to give them more bang for their buck (comparitively) when they lack access to anything other than Stunts?

[Vairelome]

More refresh will always give you more bang for your buck (unless you spend it on something that never has any impact on the game, but that's a failure at proper character building not limited to this case).  In a 15 refresh game where mortals get 18 refresh instead of 17, or a 20 refresh game where mortals get 24 instead of 22, I don't think the mortal characters are suddenly going to be all of the top build options.  I don't know how much it would narrow the gap between mortals and casters/shifters/vampires/etc., but it should narrow it somewhat, and probably won't unbalance the situation the other direction.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Vairelome
I wouldn't mind playing around with it. It's an interesting idea.

[polkaneverdies]

Mortals with stunts can end up being strong in a much wider range of things in a high refresh game. They can dump points into a lot of social and knowledge stunts and be hardcore there.
The problem is that they will never be as strong as a supe focused in a similar area at least far as combat goes.
After a mortal gets an apex skill, a +1 to hit, and a +2 to damage they are pretty much done.
Mortal sword guy (+7, weapon 4) fantastic weapons, sword 2, two stunts.

Compare that to a supe doing the same thing ( this is without even maxing it out)
   Apex skill +6 , iop sword lvl 5, sup str. 4 dam
      (+6, weapon 9)  normally this guy also takes the +1 to attack but we will pretend he didn't

You can of course make the argument that mortals will get more fp and that will balance it out. That doesn't have much merit in my opinion. They can't afford to drop 2 fp every attack just to keep up with a supe. Especially when they can't afford to be hit if they want to keep breathing.
 
The mooks in our 18 lvl refresh game our blampires.

This doesn't even touch on wizards who can easily toss around +12weapon 12 at this level.

The mortal can be a hell of a lot more versatile, but he isn't the best at anything.

[wyvern]

To get back to the original characters a bit - one thing I'd suggest, particularly for the were-raven described, is not buying beast change.  Buy the wings, buy claws & diminutive size if you want (both are optional - lack of claws power just means your claws are weapon: 0, while lack of diminutive size... well, some ravens can get pretty darned big.)  And then take a human form limitation on those powers, or even a -0 Human Guise power - bang, done.  You're, mechanically (if not necessarily thematically) a raven that can turn into a person; all beast change offers you is a skill swap - and if you're already a sneaky athletic perceptive type person, the skill swap doesn't do much for you.  It's great for a scholar that can turn into a tiger; for a thief that turns into a raven... not so much.

[Dr.FunLove]

@polkaneverdies
Oh I agree regarding combat...I wouldn't roll a vanilla human and expect to take him into straight fights against wizards and vampires. But then, I wouldn't think of rolling that kind of character in a game that was billed to essentially be "there will be lots of straight fights, no angles to work, kill or be killed" - forced to play by those rules, a Pure Mortal template character would die...horribly.

[McNulty]

To get back to the original characters a bit - one thing I'd suggest, particularly for the were-raven described, is not buying beast change.  Buy the wings, buy claws & diminutive size if you want (both are optional - lack of claws power just means your claws are weapon: 0, while lack of diminutive size... well, some ravens can get pretty darned big.) 

Well the beast change is a must for were-form template by the book. I can imagine a concept of a animal that can turn into human form, but it's not suitable here.

A related question.. can werecreatures talk when in animal form, ie do they have magical voice box?

[Haru]

Don't get hung up on the templates too much. If you have an idea for a character concept that doesn't fit into the templates, simply ignore the templates.

Since some animals are able to mimic human words, it would make sense for a were- of such an animal to be able to do so as well. Maybe not exactly like normal speech, but a few select words should be possible. The wereraven I had created could croak single syllable words. Not much, but enough. Then again, if it's all right with your group, you could decide to be able to speak normally in animal form. Or maybe allow for some sort of telepathic communication

[JDK002]

Well the beast change is a must for were-form template by the book. I can imagine a concept of a animal that can turn into human form, but it's not suitable here.

A related question.. can werecreatures talk when in animal form, ie do they have magical voice box?

As far as the source material goes, no they cannot talk in their animal form any more than the actual animal can.

Though as already stated, you can work around that.  Especially if you have a a player with thaumaturgy or a ritual crafter.  I would personally start the character "as is" unable to talk to anyone in animal form.  Then see what the players come up with to work around it if it becomes an issue.

[Sanctaphrax]

Oh I agree regarding combat...I wouldn't roll a vanilla human and expect to take him into straight fights against wizards and vampires.

I would.

Just not at 18 Refresh.

PS: Mechanically speaking, there's no real reason for all were-forms to be unable to speak. So if you want to play a special werewolf who can talk for some reason, you just need to make sure that your Aspects reflect what the specialness of your werewolf.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Sanctaphrax

I would.
Just not at 18 Refresh.

Tis what I was referring to.

[McNulty]

Thanks, I obviously need to read the magic rules more carefully but this should help me (and make one of my players happy). I might return with a follow up questions though, be warned.

Coming back to this.. Vairelome's initial explanation for crafting helped me to understand or at least focus at the correct rules. However, I have one more issue that I'm not sure how to interpret. From the end of Ritual power (p182 YS):

You may gain more Item Slots as one of the options on the Refinement ability (page 182)—but you may only buy Refinement for that purpose. All items created for those slots must be in keeping with the single application you’ve chosen for your power.

What does the bolded bit mean in Ritual(Crafting) context?

[JDK002]

Coming back to this.. Vairelome's initial explanation for crafting helped me to understand or at least focus at the correct rules. However, I have one more issue that I'm not sure how to interpret. From the end of Ritual power (p182 YS):

What does the bolded bit mean in Ritual(Crafting) context?

I don't think it would really apply.  As your theme IS crafting, it's basically the inverse of the concept.  You cant do anything but craft items using Ritual, where as say an Ectomancer who wanted to craft an item would have to keep the item in the theme of Ectomancy.

[Mrmdubois]

I don't think it would really apply.  As your theme IS crafting, it's basically the inverse of the concept.  You cant do anything but craft items using Ritual, where as say an Ectomancer who wanted to craft an item would have to keep the item in the theme of Ectomancy.

This.

The single application chosen is crafting anything.

[McNulty]

This.

The single application chosen is crafting anything.

But since items would be kept within crafting by the rule, their function would be helpful for.. crafting. Or am in some weird (il)logical loop that I cannot escape and just don't see it?