Newbie GM looking for PC-related advice

[Dr.FunLove]

So you're agreeing with me? 

If you're a low-refresh shifter, you may very well be able to assume the form but mechanically you're not going to gain the full benefit. In-game that plays off as "I'm not actually a bird, so I have to figure out how to fly".

Personally, I would probably just allow the person to fly regardless of having the ability on the sheet (he is a bird) but I would prevent it from being a true advantage mechanically. If someone changes into a wolf, they're still going to be able to run even though it's four legs. They might not be very graceful is all.

It's all a good opprotunity to roleplay that origin story and sense of discovery.

@Mr. Death
But were weren't talking about an emu, where we? In there case, flight isn't an essential part of their nature (obviously). For a raven, it is - though for a human transforming into a raven maybe not so much.

[Haru]

So you're agreeing with me? 
[...]
Personally, I would probably just allow the person to fly regardless of having the ability on the sheet (he is a bird) but I would prevent it from being a true advantage mechanically. If someone changes into a wolf, they're still going to be able to run even though it's four legs. They might not be very graceful is all.

Yeah, we're on the same page here, pretty much. You might be able to fly, but only very slowly and not very graceful. You might get where you want to go, but it will take a lot of time and effort. Often enough it will be more than you can afford.

[Dr.FunLove]

I'm not sure about anyone else, but to me that is a very compelling concept. This is why I want to run/play a lower refresh game. The origin story and sense of discovery are very powerful storytelling/roleplaying elements for me. Limitations can breed opprotunity.

[Mr. Death]

@Mr. Death
But were weren't talking about an emu, where we? In there case, flight isn't an essential part of their nature (obviously). For a raven, it is - though for a human transforming into a raven maybe not so much.

Well, you said "bird". That and I wanted an excuse to mention the kakapo. They're some really odd, flightless parrots with some of the most bizarre and counter-intuitive mating habits on the face of the planet, and there's only about 120 or so of them (though that's up from the 40 there were in 1990).

[JDK002]

So you're agreeing with me? 

If you're a low-refresh shifter, you may very well be able to assume the form but mechanically you're not going to gain the full benefit. In-game that plays off as "I'm not actually a bird, so I have to figure out how to fly".

Personally, I would probably just allow the person to fly regardless of having the ability on the sheet (he is a bird) but I would prevent it from being a true advantage mechanically. If someone changes into a wolf, they're still going to be able to run even though it's four legs. They might not be very graceful is all.

It's all a good opprotunity to roleplay that origin story and sense of discovery.

@Mr. Death
But were weren't talking about an emu, where we? In there case, flight isn't an essential part of their nature (obviously). For a raven, it is - though for a human transforming into a raven maybe not so much.

This is where buying temporary powers comes into play.  The were-crow spends 2 fate points to gain the Wings power for one scene.  This can be represented by him beginning to grasp how to operate in his bird form.  Or it could be in a moment of fight or flight panic (no pun intended) he takes to the sky in pure reflex.

[Dr.FunLove]

Or just owing it to the GM and hoping you come out of the effort still human - yes, mechanically there are lots of opprotunities for play as well. I hadn't really began to think of those. Thanks JDK.

[Sanctaphrax]

#Game Balance
Can't the GM simply craft a story where the threat level is equivalent to the strength of the player characters, thus avoiding this imbalance? It seems like the seems is balanced, but overall has a reliance on GM/player agency (in crafting stories, in regards to Fate). Is there some inherent flaw that causes imbalance?

Different character types scale differently. If you leave the range of power levels recommended by Evil Hat, some character types will become overpowered compared to some other character types.

As a general rule, spellcasters want more Refresh and mortals want less.

Also, the game gets a bit rocket-tag-like at high Refresh levels. An serious evoker can punch right through Mythic Toughness, and 8 shifts for an extreme seems pretty paltry when people launch weapon 10+ attacks casually.

This doesn't have to ruin the game. I've had plenty of fun at 18 Refresh. But you should keep this stuff in mind if playing above Submerged or below Feet In The Water.

This is where buying temporary powers comes into play.  The were-crow spends 2 fate points to gain the Wings power for one scene.  This can be represented by him beginning to grasp how to operate in his bird form.  Or it could be in a moment of fight or flight panic (no pun intended) he takes to the sky in pure reflex.

2 FP? Wouldn't it be 1, since that's what Wings costs?

[Dr.FunLove]

@Sanctaphrax
How do you play to this, in cases of higher refresh games, in order to keep these elements relevant?

[Sanctaphrax]

For the most part the players deal with it.

They don't create mortal PCs. They tend to use Evocation and Crafting and Modular Abilities. And they take a lot of Toughness/Recovery so that they don't go splat too easily.

As GM, I just keep people's abilities in mind when throwing out challenges. Nothing too fancy.

[Dr.FunLove]

Do you feel players avoid the challenge of playing mortal PC's in high refresh games due to the mechanics then? From a roleplaying perspective their is certain something appealing to the challenge.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yes.

A mortal could get a lot done with social/background skills even at 18 Refresh, but they'd be in serious trouble if they tried fighting anything on their level and they'd have no less than 20 Stunts and Fate Points to keep track of.

I don't think that appeals to people very much.

[Dr.FunLove]

Is it that, or something more basic: the desire for truly awesome pew-pew? After all, this is Dresden-verse and they sell pretty hard the idea of powerful wizards and vicious things that go bump in the night. Vanilla is tasty and you'll eat it if it's the only option...but give us all an ice cream parlour to run around in and most of us would mix it up a bit.

[Sanctaphrax]

At high Refresh levels, mortals become mechanically weak.

At high Refresh levels, people hardly ever play mortals.

I guess it's possible that the two aren't connected, but if I had to guess I'd say that the first causes the second. People will usually do what the rules encourage them to do.

[Haru]

Just to throw it out, another way to adjust the power level is just to declare a different standard. If a weapon:2 can decimate a city block, even a feet in the water character will be considered a demigod.

[Vairelome]

At high Refresh levels, mortals become mechanically weak.

At high Refresh levels, people hardly ever play mortals.

I guess it's possible that the two aren't connected, but if I had to guess I'd say that the first causes the second. People will usually do what the rules encourage them to do.

It occurs to me that the most likely mechanical reason for this is that the +2 refresh that Pure Mortals get falls off as a percentage of the whole refresh package pretty rapidly as the total pool increases.  Pure Mortals might scale better if the bonus was +1 per 5 base refresh, for instance.