Newbie GM looking for PC-related advice

[McNulty]

I have a few character-related issues boggling my mind at the moment. I'm also a complete DFRPG newbie (but seasoned veteran otherwise).

1) One of my player wants to do a focused practitioner focused on crafting magic items. Basically having Rituals:Crafting as the only magical skill (we are playing up to your waist, mind). Based on my reading of the rules, this is not really possible as he could only craft items that help you.. well, craft items. This of course sounds logical as I think one should have the magic knowledge for the type of items/potions he's trying to craft. But then again I'm not keen on thwarting the character idea completely as there's good bit of backstory invented before I started thinking about the mechanics. I think if he takes Channeling as well, then he could craft items based on a particular element/strand of magic. Am I correct so far?

I was also considering bending the rules a bit and suggesting that he could have a thaumaturgy skill only, making him a sort of a broken/half-made wizard-in-training (fits the backstory too), but let me know if this is a bad idea (other than bending the rules from the go).

2) Another character is a were-creature, a were-crow to be more precise. This is luckily more straight forward, but one thing doesn't sit well with me: the rules suggest that he should pick for example wings and diminutive size as powers for the were raven. But then again the beast change power already changes you to a bird, which is a small, flying creature (= diminutive with wings). To me this feels like you have to pay twice (or thrice) for this particular creature. I already house ruled that beast change covers the wings and size issue, but let me know if I have misunderstood something.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Vairelome]

1) Actually, a character with Ritual (Crafting) and Refinement as his only powers is one of the most potentially-powerful builds in the RAW.  Ritual (Crafting) lets you craft anything that you have the slots for.

Basically, the various specialties of Thaumaturgy come in one of two types:  Thematic specialties or Functional specialties.  Ritual gives you access to one specialty, but that can be of either type.  The trick here is that choosing a Thematic specialty (like Necromancy) covers every Function (so long as it's in theme) and choosing a Functional specialty (like Crafting) covers every Theme (but only within that function).  With Ritual (Necromancy), I could summon and bind ghosts (Summoning/Binding function in a Necromancy theme), ward against zombies (Warding function in a Necromancy theme), or make a pair of glasses that lets me see ghosts (Crafting function in a Necromancy theme).  With Ritual (Crafting), I can make a pair of glasses that lets me see ghosts (Crafting function in a Necromancy theme), a ring that can generate a block against mental attacks (Crafting function in a Psychomancy theme), or a wand that spits a stream of fire (Crafting function in a Pyromancy theme).  Ritual (Crafting) provides tremendous flexibility, but you must make and use enchanted items or potions in order to do anything magical.

2) Yeah, Beast Change doesn't work like that either--though it's also extremely worthwhile for 1 point of Refresh.  If you want to be a were-raven and only pick up Beast Change, you will turn into a human-sized bird that can't fly (a were-ostrich?).  Beast Change grants two things, though:  the justification to buy Wings and Diminutive Size (so you can fly and be normal raven sized) AND the ability to have a second Skill list available for your transformed self.  These are huge--you can bring a lot more flexibility to the group if your normal human form is oriented towards knowledge and social-type Skills, but your beast form has Athletics or other combat-relevant abilities topped out.

[Deadmanwalking]

What Vairelome said. On #2 specifically, giving out other powers just because a player has Beast Change is like giving everyone who takes the Blood Drinker power Inhuman Strength for free because vampires are super strong. It's true of the creature type, but that just means that creatures of that type need to buy additional powers, not that they get them for free.

You could take Beast Change (Tiger), Beast Change (Raven) and Beast Change (Gibbon). Going by your ruling, the first would be by far the best one to pick, since it gets you Claws, Inhuman Strength, and probably Inhuman Speed for free (Tigers all have those things, after all), while the Raven gets only Wings and Diminutive Size, and the Gibbon gets nothing beyond the skill-swap. So, to avoid that problem, the mechanics are effect-based: All the power gives you is skill-swapping and passing for that creature. You want other stuff you need to pay for it (though you can, of course, use Human Form to get something of a discount).

[McNulty]

Thanks, I obviously need to read the magic rules more carefully but this should help me (and make one of my players happy). I might return with a follow up questions though, be warned.

Regarding the were-creatures.. I hear what you are saying and that's how I read it too, though it doesn't make sense to me. Also this "You take on the shape and appearance of the beast.." suggest to me that you take the actual shape (including size), but obviously there's room for interpretation. I'll leave it at that as I'm not here to argue about the rules and I'm sure there are reasons for the system to work like that (most likely game balancing ones).

And the good thing about RPG's is that you can change things you don't like. I'm tempted to make the beast change a tad more comprehensive (and more expensive to buy).

[Deadmanwalking]

Regarding the were-creatures.. I hear what you are saying and that's how I read it too, though it doesn't make sense to me. Also this "You take on the shape and appearance of the beast.." suggest to me that you take the actual shape (including size), but obviously there's room for interpretation. I'll leave it at that as I'm not here to argue about the rules and I'm sure there are reasons for the system to work like that (most likely game balancing ones).

Sure, you look like a Raven. Or whatever. But appearances aren't everything. You want the actual mechanical benefits of other powers, you have to buy them. And yeah, game balance is definitely the primary concern with that.

And the good thing about RPG's is that you can change things you don't like. I'm tempted to make the beast change a tad more comprehensive (and more expensive to buy).

The thing is, at the moment, for practical purposes, Beast Change already does cost more, and is modular, by the simple expedient of including other powers if you pay for them, and only if you pay for them. Any additions to that are likely to be either unbalancingly overpowered or utterly pointless.

[McNulty]

The thing is, at the moment, for practical purposes, Beast Change already does cost more, and is modular, by the simple expedient of including other powers if you pay for them, and only if you pay for them. Any additions to that are likely to be either unbalancingly overpowered or utterly pointless.

The first is actually true, but the feeling within our group was that it felt too expensive that you need to buy all the bits and bobs separately. And where do you draw the line? Do you need to buy Claws for a wereraven in order to actually have them even though you are a bird, etc. Or a beak. Or a trunk for were-elephant (ok that's a joke but you get the meaning I hope). I can see the balance-issue being the most pressing one, but luckily I have awesome players so we can handle that on the fly (pun intended).

I acknowledge that I'm on a thin ice here as a total DFRPG newbie, but this bit about werecreatures just didn't feel "logical" to any of us. Or maybe it's the baggage how more familiar systems approach werecreatures..

Anyways, thanks for your input.

 

[Mr. Death]

Honestly? That's just too bad. That's how the game works. You want claws? You have to pay for the power. You want to fly? You have to pay for the power. You want diminutive size? You have to pay for the power. This isn't a system where you get things for free because they make sense for a creature. It's a system where a creature has powers and traits because they paid for those powers and traits.

What you're talking about is just ignoring the mechanics that make all the creatures work.

Would you have someone play a White Court Vampire, and let them get the benefits of Inhuman Strength/Speed/Recovery without paying for them because "Well, he's a White Court Vampire, so he should have them"?

If you want the mechanical benefits of a power, you pay refresh for that power, full stop.

[Deadmanwalking]

The first is actually true, but the feeling within our group was that it felt too expensive that you need to buy all the bits and bobs separately.

Well, are you including Human Form? That's a pretty universal rebate for shapeshifters.

And where do you draw the line? Do you need to buy Claws for a wereraven in order to actually have them even though you are a bird, etc. Or a beak. Or a trunk for were-elephant (ok that's a joke but you get the meaning I hope).

The powers are purely mechanical, so you draw the line at the mechanics: Does the Raven fly? Then it needs wings. Does it get the +4 stealth and al assorted other benefits and disadvantages of being Diminutive Size? Then it gets that power. Does it get the +2 damage from Claws? Then it has that power. A Raven with only Wings, for example, would do normal unarmed damage with it's attacks and would be big enough that Diminutive size didn't apply (a very reasonable idea). One with Claws does more damage, one with diminutive Size is susceptible to all that stuff.

I can see the balance-issue being the most pressing one, but luckily I have awesome players so we can handle that on the fly (pun intended).

I strongly advise against this. Even one Refresh makes a huge difference in this game. Giving it out free is a bad idea on par with giving out free levels in D&D.

I acknowledge that I'm on a thin ice here as a total DFRPG newbie, but this bit about werecreatures just didn't feel "logical" to any of us. Or maybe it's the baggage how more familiar systems approach werecreatures..

You're thinking of it wrong. One power almost never defines a creature type, which is what you're suggesting. And being able to turn into an animal is cool enough to be a creature type, not just a single trick.

Anyways, thanks for your input.

Always happy to be of assistance. 

[Mr. Death]

On reflection, I think part of the issue is your veteran status in other games--I'm guessing these other games had things like racial bonuses for creature types, for example? You need to forget about all that, because it doesn't apply to DFRPG. A creature type isn't built through bonuses that "make sense", it's built through spending refresh on powers.

Any built-in mechanical bonus to a skill roll costs Refresh. A vampire doesn't get a +1 to Athletics rolls because it's a vampire, it gets a +1 to its Athletics rolls because it paid for Inhuman Speed. Nobody gets power for free.

[McNulty]

On reflection, I think part of the issue is your veteran status in other games

Nail & Head, thanks! For this I'll let your first, imho quite condescending reply leave be.

This is not going to make one of my players too happy, but I'll probably stick with the rules as written now.

[polkaneverdies]

You would have wings, but you might not have the hollow bones or the instincts neccessary to fly correctly.
You would have claws, but they wouldn't do as much damage as a sword.

Fool moon addresses this issue when it talks about people being able to shift and look like a creature but having no idea how to work as one.

It is your game so obviously it is your call.
Frankly I would like to play in your game.
My character idea is timetraveling sue come to find out who messed with her bones.
I will use all the refresh I didn't spend have to spend buying the physical powers to myself a  spell slinger. (This hyperbole,  I know this wouldn't pass gm scrutiny)

[Mr. Death]

Apologies, I didn't mean to be condescending, just firm. I figured this was an issue that should be nipped in the bud before it threw your game totally out of whack, and your previous responses made it seem like you were going to go ahead with giving the powers for free anyway.

[McNulty]

My character idea is timetraveling sue come to find out who messed with her bones.

 

No time-bending elements in my games, thank you very much.

[Mr. Death]

Oh, but those are so much fun. My campaign is currently in the middle of a Groundhog Day-esque time loop (I'm having a lot of fun dramatically killing people off repeatedly).

[McNulty]

Apologies, I didn't mean to be condescending, just firm. I figured this was an issue that should be nipped in the bud before it threw your game totally out of whack, and your previous responses made it seem like you were going to go ahead with giving the powers for free anyway.

Apology accepted and no worries, I understand your point now. But then again I understood the rules regarding this from the beginning, not just the logic/reasoning behind it. Telling me that you're out of luck as those are the rules doesn't help me much in that area. But everything else in this thread have, even if a bit roundabout way. So I tip my hat to y'all.