Author Topic: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions  (Read 11670 times)

Offline Kristine

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Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« on: August 25, 2007, 06:34:05 PM »
It seems to me that there are many different types of magic that could be used for aspects in the game.  Consider Mortimer Lindquist the Ectomancer.  Harry has said he is a conjurer.  What kind of magic description conforms with what kind of uses of magic and what kind of actual magics are there?

We know there is a Life magic that Harry and the White Council use most of the time.  We know there is Death magic (used in Dead Beat) that is looked down on but NOT forbidden by the white council.  Which of these does Ectomancy fall under?

Are there other forms of magic besides Life and Death?  What is Carlos using with his green shield and glove with the Aztec symbols on it?


So many questions....

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Offline cephis

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2007, 11:12:16 PM »
The Green Shield was water based entrophy magic.  Morgan evokes earth magic, evocation is magic on the fly.  Harrys fist of fire with his blasting rod is a rough evocation.  Most magic in the Dresden world are manipulations of present energys.  So there is kninetic, Seismic, thermal, Mental, electric, entrophy, etc
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Offline Haru

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 10:33:14 PM »
There are two different things you have to consider when discribing the magic in the Dresden Files: energy and symbols.

now the energy is simply what fuels the spell, so your effect can actually take place. "White" or "life" magic takes it's power from what best represents life: emotions. "Black" or "death" magic takes its power from everything representing death, the force of ghosts for example.

There is a passage in White Night, that explains the whole energy part very good, I think:

White Night Spoiler (Hardcover, Chapter 20, Page 169):
(click to show/hide)

The symbols on the other hand are a way to shield the wizards brain from the energy he is channeling to create the effect of his spell. This is where the elements like fire or earth or the color coding thing come in, and I suppose a wizard needs to categorize the use of his magic somehow in order to prevent his head from exploding.

Evocation in the books is mostly symbolicaly divided into the elements, and I think that is, because they can all be connected to some kind of energy (fire=heat, wind= kinetic, earth=magnetic, water=entropy), which is exacly what you want in evocations, and it is for example easier to think of a ball of fire than on acceleration of molecules to create heat. But evocation can also work with other symbols, like the shield-bracelet for example.

Thaumaturgy also uses symbols to help the wizard focus his magic on the effect or object or person or whatnot he wishes, but thaumaturgy uses more time than evocations, allowing the wizard to use more symbols to create a greater and/or more complex effect than evocation. Like when Harry conjures the Erlking, he uses a lot of things to get it right.

So a spell only really needs energy, the symbols are just a way to help the wizard to not go insane by the use of his magic by shielding his brain from the raw force of his spell.


That should pretty much sum up how I think the whole Dresden magic works.
If I missed anything or made a mistake, feel free to correct me.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2013, 08:33:33 PM »
There are two different things you have to consider when discribing the magic in the Dresden Files: energy and symbols.

now the energy is simply what fuels the spell, so your effect can actually take place. "White" or "life" magic takes it's power from what best represents life: emotions. "Black" or "death" magic takes its power from everything representing death, the force of ghosts for example.

There is a passage in White Night, that explains the whole energy part very good, I think:

White Night Spoiler (Hardcover, Chapter 20, Page 169):
(click to show/hide)

The symbols on the other hand are a way to shield the wizards brain from the energy he is channeling to create the effect of his spell. This is where the elements like fire or earth or the color coding thing come in, and I suppose a wizard needs to categorize the use of his magic somehow in order to prevent his head from exploding.

Evocation in the books is mostly symbolicaly divided into the elements, and I think that is, because they can all be connected to some kind of energy (fire=heat, wind= kinetic, earth=magnetic, water=entropy), which is exacly what you want in evocations, and it is for example easier to think of a ball of fire than on acceleration of molecules to create heat. But evocation can also work with other symbols, like the shield-bracelet for example.

Thaumaturgy also uses symbols to help the wizard focus his magic on the effect or object or person or whatnot he wishes, but thaumaturgy uses more time than evocations, allowing the wizard to use more symbols to create a greater and/or more complex effect than evocation. Like when Harry conjures the Erlking, he uses a lot of things to get it right.

So a spell only really needs energy, the symbols are just a way to help the wizard to not go insane by the use of his magic by shielding his brain from the raw force of his spell.


That should pretty much sum up how I think the whole Dresden magic works.
If I missed anything or made a mistake, feel free to correct me.

I think you're mixing your terms too much. "Black" magic is any magic that breaks the Laws so necromancy (what you call "death" magic) is simply a part of it. i have also never heard non-black magic called white magic.

I  don't see why necromancy can't be fueled by emotions. I didn't see anything like that in DB. I think that there is some evidence that necromancy does not purely come from death. Instead it is life and death combined. Some quotes:

 
Quote
Bob's voice took on the edge of a sneer. "What you call magic is nothing but a mound of parlor tricks, beside the power to master life and death itself."

Quote
There was a flash, and a pair of white eyes formed in the glittering cloud of red points of light. They
weren't pleasant. "Shall I show you the start of the path?" Bob's voice said. "Death, Dresden, is a part of
you. It is woven into the fabric of your being. You are a collection of pieces, each of them dying and in
turn being reborn and remade."

Also recall that zombies are controlled by imitating a beating heart.

From what I can recall, nothing in the books says that symbols are used to "not go insane by the use of his magic by shielding his brain from the raw force of his spell". Can I get a quote?

It is said by Harry in Cold Days that magic is Will combined with energy. We can assume this supersedes your quote.

This "other energy" could be ambient magic (as explained in Small Favor), storms, sacrifices, etc. Ambient magic is the most commonly used source. Emotions are used to fuel your Will and make it stronger. Going by the principle of "you are what you eat" this also colours the magic you use with it.

Your Will is used to shape the raw energy to do what you want. Since it is exhausting to concentrate hard enough to do so normally, "crutches" are used. These can theoretically be almost anything since they are purely mental tools. It's easier to create a fire blast if you can associate concentrating on one with a rod.  Symbols are used for the same purpose.

Magic itself is purely a mental thing. You don't actually need all the symbols and tools to use it, it's just much easier. Harry could theoretically have summoned the Erlking with nothing but his mind.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 08:35:56 PM by 123456789blaaa »
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Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2013, 09:41:03 PM »
There are many refferences in the book to the need of symbols to sheild the mind. They say that they can be mental symbols, constructs if you will, but they still need to be there. In Fool Moon when harry uses no symbols (I feel that the words are a type of symbol as they are tied to the magic) his brain goes haywire. So there is some need for symbols. probably more so in thaumaturgy than in evocation though.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2013, 12:28:37 AM »
Resurrecting a thread with a post about necromancy? Very fitting.

And since Haru is still around, you might actually get a response from him.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2013, 02:47:22 AM »
Resurrecting a thread with a post about necromancy? Very fitting.

And since Haru is still around, you might actually get a response from him.

Is thread necromancy prohibited in this forum? I looked around a bunch and couldn't find any rules against it...

I also could have sworn this thread showed up when I clicked the "Show unread posts since last visit" link...
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Offline Haru

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2013, 07:16:48 PM »
Wow, this is an old one. I honestly had trouble remembering that I wrote that. I mean it is me, obviously, but it's been 6 years. Must have been around the time I started on the board, I think.

Anyhow, let me see if I can shed some light on some things.

First of, yes, necromancy is about life and death, as well as usual magic is about life and death. I think it is just a matter of perspective. For a wizard, death is the absence of life. For a necromancer, life is the absence of death. It might be splitting hairs, but the wizards perspective plays a huge part in what they are doing, that's why I am making a point about it.

I'd wager, that you would be able to break the laws with both necromantic and normal magic (leaving you with black magic and black necromancy). You can push life into a corpse or you could shove death out of it, the end effect would in both cases be a zombie. The same goes for Kumori saving the man's life. She kept death away from him, instead of forcing life into him. The end effect is the same, but the approach is vastly different. So different in fact, that her approach might actually be easier than anything Harry or even the Merlin might have accomplished.


I'm pretty sure we're on the same page with will and energy and such, maybe I worded it poorly. The wizard needs to shape his spell into the effect he wants, that is part of what his will does. He can also fuel it with his will, and that's where he doesn't need any external energy sources. He can get more bang for his bucks, if he can draw energy from additional sources, of course. I don't see how my quote and your "Will and energy" argument contradict each other.


I think we mean the same thing, only you say "crutches", I say "symbols". It's purely speculative. There might be people who can calculate complex mathematical formulas in their heads, but most people need to do auxiliary calculations to be able to get anywhere close to the answer. From the perspective of someone who can do it, those auxiliary calculations are certainly a crutch, but if they are required by the vast majority, is it really fair to call it a crutch? It's a tool, and some people can do without. Granted, symbol might not be the best word, but I still like it. "Tool" feels like it is limited to physical tools like symbolic links or focus items, and that's just not the case.

Harry explains the use of words to shield the mind pretty much for every spell he casts in the first three books (well, it feels like it. I can't find a quote right now. If anyone has a digital copy to search through, it would be appreciated). He states that the word is a symbol for the wizard to file away the spell in his mind, to have a construct, a symbol for everything that the spell is. Like when I say "Hammer", and you have not only the image of a hammer in your mind, but your body also remembers the movement necessary to use a hammer to drive in nail.

Now if you have an actual hammer in your hand, it would be much easier for you to actually do the precise motion. If you had a mark on the wall, you will be more precise in making the motion exactly the same over and over again, even if you don't hit an actual nail, because you have a clear visual target.

I think it is very similar with a spell in the dresden verse. You can apply your will directly, we've seen demonstrations of this by Vadderung, the Mothers and even the Lords of outer night. But those are old and immensely powerful beings. Everyone else needs to apply what I call symbols. It is extremely difficult to affect something by pure will, but you know what fire is, what it behaves like, what it does, so instead of pure will, you shape it into fire and throw fire at your target, because that's something you can understand. The words you say when casting the spell are just refining it even more, so "Fuego" for Harry is not only a word for fire, but it is the mental image of his lance of fire, the mental processes it entails, the motion of his arm, and so forth.

I see symbols as pretty much anything that makes your spell deviate from an application of pure will. The elements, words and focus items of evocation, ritual items in thaumaturgy, what you call "crutches". Yes, you can do anything as pure will, but using tools and symbols is much easier and sometimes the only way for someone to do it at all.

Well, a lot of rambling on an old topic. I tend to ramble on, if nobody stops me. Also, this is pretty much all my opinion, I don't claim to know the fabric of a fictitious universe that hasn't entirely been created by myself. This is however my interpretation of what has been presented.

TLDR:
- Necromancy is diametrically opposite normal magic, both can be black or "white"
- I don't think I contradicted the "Will and Energy" assumption
- Symbols are everything that makes a spell easier to cast, beginning in the choice of elements
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Types of Magic - What and Why Aspect Questions
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 09:55:56 PM »
Is thread necromancy prohibited in this forum? I looked around a bunch and couldn't find any rules against it...

I don't think it's prohibited. Might be vaguely frowned upon, though.

Regardless, it looks like it's working out OK here.