Social Conflict Examples

[Dougansf]

I'm having trouble figuring out how Social Conflict is supposed to work.

What is an appropriate situation for it to be used?
What skills can cause Stress at any given time?
When is it Social or Mental Stress?
What skills defend against which?

YS seems to be very loose with this, and doesn't give the best examples.  So I'd like to hear how you've used it in your games.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm having trouble figuring out how Social Conflict is supposed to work.

You are not alone, many have this issue.

What is an appropriate situation for it to be used?

An interrogation, a bargaining session at a Faerie market, a treaty negotiation, an attempt to seduce a Freeholding Lord who doesn't wish to be seduced but does want to know why you're trying. Y'know, any social stuff where two parties are both trying to beat the other at something.

What skills can cause Stress at any given time?

Deceit, Intimidation, and Rapport, mostly, though Presence can do so sometimes as well. Resources can also be used when bribing or offering to bribe people. Contacts can be used as an attack skill if doing a whispering campaign or something like that, but not in person.

When is it Social or Mental Stress?

Only supernatural powers, actual torture or a few other really extreme things are Mental Stress. It's almost always Social instead. If you have any doubt which, it's almost certainly social.

What skills defend against which?

Empathy can defend against everything, as can Rapport. Deceit can defend against most stuff, but is modified by Rapport when doing so, and generally precludes Deceit attacks when used this way. Discipline and Presence can occasionally be used when appropriate (almost always only vs. Intimidation...though Discipline might work to resist seduction, too). Several other skills like Presence can also be used for Blocks, but not usually defensive rolls per se.

YS seems to be very loose with this, and doesn't give the best examples.  So I'd like to hear how you've used it in your games.

It's a little shaky on the first part, but absolutely clear on the others if you read the skill descriptions (and the social combat section) thoroughly.

[Mr. Ghostbuster]

Not sure if this is the best example but during my group's second or third session we tried our hand at our first social conflict. My character, a Warden and a U.S. Marshall had a hit placed on him by the local Red Court Baron. As a result he and the party had to fight off three separate hit squads in about a twenty-four hour period. As you can imagine three different gun fights in one day (along with several bodies) was kind of hard to explain to his superiors in the Justice Department. They just thought he stumbled into an organized crime ring and ordered him placed under protective custody. My character tried to convince his superior officer that he didn't need protection (he really didn't) and that he was the only one who could handle the situation.

So I rolled a social "attack" with Rapport and I think the superior officer defended with Empathy. Unfortunately, my Warden is excellent with a gun but fairly pathetic at the social scene. I lost the conflict (to say the least), took four social stress (my social stress track was only at 3). So my Warden ended up with the "Dangerous and Arrogant" moderate social consequence, which was now how his department saw him.

[Dougansf]

You are not alone, many have this issue.

Well... that's good to hear. 
Like many folks, I have a group of D&D-style players trying to make the jump, and they're looking for hard rules.  The Social skills seem solid, but the Social conflics seems to be very fluid, which makes sense, but is hard to teach.

An interrogation, a bargaining session at a Faerie market, a treaty negotiation, an attempt to seduce a Freeholding Lord who doesn't wish to be seduced but does want to know why you're trying. Y'know, any social stuff where two parties are both trying to beat the other at something.

Those all make sense.  Do you have any stories of how they worked in play?

So, what does the Social stress track actually represent?  Does it change depending on the scene?
The book seems to switch it between your reputation among your peers, and your ability to put up with intimidation.  Which seem like very different things to me.

Deceit, Intimidation, and Rapport, mostly, though Presence can do so sometimes as well. Resources can also be used when bribing or offering to bribe people. Contacts can be used as an attack skill if doing a whispering campaign or something like that, but not in person.

This makes sense according to the Social Conflict chapter, and a bit of common sense from how the skills are written up.  I just wish there were some more examples of which is appropriate when.

Only supernatural powers, actual torture or a few other really extreme things are Mental Stress. It's almost always Social instead. If you have any doubt which, it's almost certainly social.

Empathy can defend against everything, as can Rapport. Deceit can defend against most stuff, but is modified by Rapport when doing so, and generally precludes Deceit attacks when used this way. Discipline and Presence can occasionally be used when appropriate (almost always only vs. Intimidation...though Discipline might work to resist seduction, too). Several other skills like Presence can also be used for Blocks, but not usually defensive rolls per se.

Okay that brings up one of my confusions:  Discipline is the go-to skill for Mental defense, but it can also be used as a Social defense?

I think there was even a description of how a social situation can cause Mental stress, namely because of the relationship between the two (abusive parent/spouse).

Also, it seems odd (in comparison to Physical conflicts) that Rapport can be a go-to for Defense (like Athletics) AND be an offense as well.  Or how attacking with Presence is comparable to attacking with Endurance?

It's a little shaky on the first part, but absolutely clear on the others if you read the skill descriptions (and the social combat section) thoroughly.

Yeah, it was the slight contradictions between the skill descriptions and the Social conflict explanation that confused me.  Not to mention the comparison to Physical skills, which are more cut and dry.

[Dougansf]

So I rolled a social "attack" with Rapport and I think the superior officer defended with Empathy. Unfortunately, my Warden is excellent with a gun but fairly pathetic at the social scene. I lost the conflict (to say the least), took four social stress (my social stress track was only at 3). So my Warden ended up with the "Dangerous and Arrogant" moderate social consequence, which was now how his department saw him.

Thanks Mr. G
So, your PCs reputation was harmed by the conflict due to the Consequence. 

Was that the whole of the conflict?  Were you Taken Out or did you Concede after that?

[Dougansf]

Here's another question to throw out there...

What about mixing conflicts? 
The most common one: when in the middle of a Physical conflict, you throw an Intimidation attack.  Does that works against your Social or Mental track?

I know all the Spellcasters want it to be Social (we want to cast spells with Mental stress).

It's implied that Discipline is what to roll for defense, but you'd still take Social stress.  But if your Social track represents your reputation, not your ability to withstand direct insults with no one watching.

[thornlord]

Here's another question to throw out there...

What about mixing conflicts? 
The most common one: when in the middle of a Physical conflict, you throw an Intimidation attack.  Does that works against your Social or Mental track?

I know all the Spellcasters want it to be Social (we want to cast spells with Mental stress).

It's implied that Discipline is what to roll for defense, but you'd still take Social stress.  But if your Social track represents your reputation, not your ability to withstand direct insults with no one watching.

I feel that the social track is your "Composure" track. It's not just your reputation (consequence), it's your cool, your ability to work with others on a social level. Mental attacks have the consequences of madness and lost memories and other mental afflictions. All three tracks could give you jitters as a consequence.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well... that's good to hear. 
Like many folks, I have a group of D&D-style players trying to make the jump, and they're looking for hard rules.  The Social skills seem solid, but the Social conflics seems to be very fluid, which makes sense, but is hard to teach.

No more fluid than most social rules. Bear in mind Maneuvers and Invoking for effect and you should be good.

Those all make sense.  Do you have any stories of how they worked in play?

None of those are actually an example from play per se. All are just situations that are appropriate. I have had PCs bargain for information with a contact and interrogate a capture sorcerer, though. Both of those worked okay.

So, what does the Social stress track actually represent?  Does it change depending on the scene?
The book seems to switch it between your reputation among your peers, and your ability to put up with intimidation.  Which seem like very different things to me.

What does the physical stress track represent, being tired or being actively injured? The answer is both. Same with Social Stress. As someone mentioned, what social stress really represents is your composure and ability to keep your cool. Bad reputation, flipping out, being scared, all those are examples of Consequences you might take from losing said cool.

This makes sense according to the Social Conflict chapter, and a bit of common sense from how the skills are written up.  I just wish there were some more examples of which is appropriate when.

That'd be nice, yeah. Though all of what I list is explicit in the skills chapter. What situation were you thinking of?

Okay that brings up one of my confusions:  Discipline is the go-to skill for Mental defense, but it can also be used as a Social defense?

Occasionally, and mostly only vs. Intimidation, but yeah. Mental conflict is actually pretty rare, so it's hardly unbalanced.

I think there was even a description of how a social situation can cause Mental stress, namely because of the relationship between the two (abusive parent/spouse).

Yes. Like I said, extreme situations.

Also, it seems odd (in comparison to Physical conflicts) that Rapport can be a go-to for Defense (like Athletics) AND be an offense as well.  Or how attacking with Presence is comparable to attacking with Endurance?

Well, you can attack and defend with Fists and Weapons, too Hell, there's even a Stunt that makes Fists universal on defense. And Presence isn't Endurance any more than Conviction is. It's force of personality, and

Yeah, it was the slight contradictions between the skill descriptions and the Social conflict explanation that confused me.  Not to mention the comparison to Physical skills, which are more cut and dry.

What contradictions?

Here's another question to throw out there...

What about mixing conflicts? 
The most common one: when in the middle of a Physical conflict, you throw an Intimidation attack.  Does that works against your Social or Mental track?

I know all the Spellcasters want it to be Social (we want to cast spells with Mental stress).

It's implied that Discipline is what to roll for defense, but you'd still take Social stress.  But if your Social track represents your reputation, not your ability to withstand direct insults with no one watching.

As mentioned above, it'd be Social, and represent you getting angry or scared and losing your cool. Which is why Discipline could be used to resist it, at least potentially.

[Mr. Ghostbuster]

Thanks Mr. G
So, your PCs reputation was harmed by the conflict due to the Consequence. 

Was that the whole of the conflict?  Were you Taken Out or did you Concede after that?

For that particular conflict, that was the end of it. We did have another social conflict in the next session in which the group was trying to interrogate a captured thug of the Red Court (one of the guys who tried to kill the Warden). My Warden is a rookie and very young, so I designed him with lower social skills. He attempted to Intimidate the prisoner and failed miserably. I ended up having concede that conflict and let the others interrogate him when he started using Intimidate to infuriate the Warden.

[Eagleofmeaux]

The way I have tended to think of social conflict all revolves around perception.  When two people have opposing goals and want to use social norms or concepts of appropriate behavior in order to get what they want, then we have social conflict.

It's not as much about persuading someone as it is about leaving them no socially acceptable option except to agree.  A character could always refuse to do something, they just can't do so doing without looking rude/inappropriate/offensive without winning the social conflict. 

Generally, my rule of thumb is this:
-If you're trying to persuade someone to do something then you're just making skill-rolls against a set difficulty.
-If you're trying to use social pressure (or what other people will think about what's happening) as a way to get someone to do what you want, then you're engaged in social conflict with them.

Social conflict almost always requires an audience who would have a positive or negative reaction to how the conflicting parties behave.  That audience isn't always physically present, but the idea that word of your behavior might get back to them is what makes the conflict a social one.

Examples:
A political candidate is being questioned by a reporter and asked to comment on a potentially scandalous story.  The reporter wants the politician to talk about the story, and the politician wants to avoid it without looking shifty or dishonest.  The reporter likely initiates the social conflict, trying to get the politician flustered enough that she has to answer the question or look bad.  The politician could respond with her own social attack on the reporter by trying to make the reporter's interest in the subject seem inappropriate, or by attempting to throw the reporter off balance by asking about a recent mistake the reporter has made.  Both are trying to get the other to do something (or stop doing something) by deliberately making it difficult for them to resist without appearing rude or inappropriate. 
(Mechanics)
The reporter asks the politician a very pointed question with evidence the politician didn't know about (the reporter probably just tagged an aspect she'd dug up earlier)  This results in a 4 stress hit to the politician forcing her to take the minor consequence "blind-sided" to stay in the conflict.  The politician fires back with an attack on the reporter's credibility doing one shift of stress.  The reporter tries to follow up by pointing out the politician's evasiveness, but rolls terribly, and even with the tag only does one point of stress.  The politician finally claims that we need to "elevate our discourse and transcend the base scandal-mongering of a press gone wild," and with a fate point and a good roll does a 5 stress hit to the reporter which takes her out.  The reporter looks over-zealous and petty for asking the question and fades into the background as people pay more attention to the saintly politician who can now avoid that area of questioning entirely without looking evasive or shifty.

A careless wizard stumbles into the domain of a hostile Lord of Fairy and his court.  The wizard wants to escape unharmed, the Fae Lord wants to kill the wizard.  If the wizard tries to prevent the Fae Lord from killing him by arguing that it would be rude or would look bad to Fairy in general then the wizard has opened a social conflict.  The Fae Lord's objective is NOT to convince the wizard of anything, but rather to convince the audience that his actions would be socially appropriate, or to get the wizard so flustered (by depleting his social stress) that he behaves inappropriately and the Fae Lord can then kill him for that.  Eventually the wizard is successful enough that he runs the Fae Lord out of social stress, and the Lord has to concede and grudgingly allow the wizard to leave unharmed if he wishes to avoid looking like a bad host.

A police officer is called before a review board after she made a questionable decision.  One of the members of the board is clearly out to get her and is trying to get her to lose her cool or admit to making a mistake.  The officer is trying to get the board member to overplay his hand and look petty and vengeful so that the rest of the board will ignore his questions.  The audience in this case is the rest of the review board, the officer and the vengeful board member are the two in conflict.  Eventually the board member wears her down and she is forced to either admit her mistake, or look insubordinate.  She opts to concede the conflict and admit her mistake rather than being taken out and yelling at him.

A nurse is trying to get her patient to take his medication, but the patient doesn't want to because of the side effect.  This is probably NOT a social conflict, it's just a skill challenge (the Nurse's Empathy perhaps, with a difficulty of the patient's Discipline, or possibly a set difficulty).  If instead the patient knew his family was outside in the lobby and he wanted to refuse the request without seeming rude or ungrateful then we may have a social conflict.

Lots of rambling from me, hope it's helpful

[Crazy Wilhelm]

Those are super helpful examples, actually. Thanks, Eagle!