Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]

[Fox]

A grenade has one purpose - it go BOOM.  It makes no determination of the appropriate time to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate place to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate way to go boom.  A grenade just IS, but Mab IS, while making determinations.

Mab had to prove to Harry that his debt had been transferred to her, so she caused him to stab himself in the hand with a letter opener.  Then (SK) - Then regarding the punishment of Lloyd Slate (Changes) -Yes, I know he committed treason.  Yes, I know she needed to deter others from acting against her.  But...

I have a difficult time getting the warm and fuzzies for Mab, imaging she's regrowing a soul, or even amassing a big bunch of respect for her, when I consider many of the "appropriate" methods she employs to achieve her purpose.

You're kind of assuming that negative emotions or behavior have nothing to do with the soul then, only the good stuff?  What about hate?  I'd think that irrational hatred would be as surprising in Mab as affection.

[matolilyfu]

You're kind of assuming that negative emotions or behavior have nothing to do with the soul then, only the good stuff?  What about hate?  I'd think that irrational hatred would be as surprising in Mab as affection.

I never considered Mab having a soul, (and still don't really), until the question of Molly's soul arose, since we've been led to believe the Sidhe don't have souls and Molly is Sidhe now.

I associate cold, cruel, predatory, etc. with the behavior of the Winter Sidhe, but not hate.

[huangjimmy108]

  I don't think it has anything to do with Mab's strength...  I am willing to be that Maeve was allowed to pick her Knight just like Lily was able to chose Fix.

I agree with you there. In normal circumstances, it is the lady that select the knight and in most circumstances the queen did not interfere to much.

Now, the questions: Why does the queen not interferes in a knight selection? Is the selection of a knight is beneath a Queen's notice?

We know that Slate is weak. And I assume we agree that Mab knows about Slate's weak nature before SK. Why then, did she not order Maeve to replace Slate? If a knight have to be powerful and capable like Harry and if such a knight is critical for the winter court as a whole, how come a mediocre knight like slate can hold the job?

I understand why Titania did not interferes with Lily. She simply didn't care. But Cd show that Mab did care about Maeve. Why then, did she let Maeve have a weak knight?

The only answer that I can think of for these questions is the conclusion that a powerful knight like Harry is undesirable under normal circumstances. It is to much trouble to kept a knight like Harry unless there is a definitive problem that needs such a knight. This let me to think that Harry may be in danger once he fulfills his duties to winter. He won't be needed anymore and he will starts to be more trouble than he is worth, But since Mab is a strong Queen herself, she'll probably find a way to make use of a dangerous knight like Harry. A less secure and capable Queen however, might view Harry as a threat and might find it easier to terminate him either by killing or use drugs and seks to keep him insensible.

Butter's comment about the mantle shutting down Harry's ability to feel pain is Mab's way to control the knight supports this theory. If Mab have to regulates the knight so he won't grow to powerful , it means Mab have reason to fear her knight.

[huangjimmy108]

the difference is this grenade is self aware, and while we can debate morality or soulness has made decisions that limit civilian casualties as well as placed herself in considerable danger at times.

there is some one home there, folks.

 

If I have to bet money, I'll bet money that someone is home there.

To assume that Mab is 100% force of nature means Mab is sort of a high level Anti Outsider weapon system with super AI programming. But the indications after CD did not supports this theory.

1. Mab is previously mortal. Human to be exact. And Free wil rule states that Mab the human can always choose. In other words a complete annialation of a human's soul and free wil is not so easily done. There is always a choice.

2. her unwillingness to kill Maeve directly is a very illogical and inafficient way to terminate Nemesis's threat. The queen's mantle, the programming she is installed with would have killed Maeve in the stone Altar and replace her with Sarrisa the moment she found out that Maeve is infected. But Mab did not do that. She take the harder path and hire Harry to do the job. It is the limit of what the mantle allow her to express her love, but the fact she is able to take the harder and less logical path shows that someone is still inside.

Textual evidence leans to the fact that Mab still have what remains of her soul. Will Jim gave us the background story of Mab's assention? It would help our understanding a lot. 

[123456789blaaa]

You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know

Hmm? What do you mean? Or are you talking about how Mother Summer said that you need a heart for it to freeze?

I don't see it that way.  I believe that she DOES give a crap, but that if it were necessary she wouldn't have any problem with it.  Not the same as not caring about it.  Then when you involve family, feelings are really different.  She was OBVIOUSLY upset about having to have her daughter killed.  Not that she wasn't going to do it, but she didn't want to do it.  It was necessary and it served as a statement to the supernatural community.  Both that she was even willing to do what needed to be done, even against family, and that her knew Knight could handle it.

I think we're interpreting the WoJ I posted very very differently.
 

I'm having trouble with your line of thinking here, (although Ms Duck, you have my utmost respect).  I think Mab guards the Gate because it is part of what she is.  There is nothing to even hint she cares in the slightest for Earth or mortals - both are inconsequential, except for rare occasions when she can utilize one mortal or another toward her purpose.  The outsiders are a threat to the fae as much as humankind, but I genuinely don't know if that matters to Mab.  She is who and what she is and does what she has to do in whatever ways she deems appropriate, (those ways, imo, are often objectionable).

I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept.  I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms.  But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind.  Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?

Titania can't lie either and she said Mab believes in reason, logic and calculation and MW said Mab is a too much of a romantic.    I get sooo confused.

When you ask if Mab is evil, are you talking about in-universe our out-of-universe? The distinction is important.

And probably to a passionate being like Titania Mab is logical and calculating but to a being like MW Mab is too soft.

I never considered Mab having a soul, (and still don't really), until the question of Molly's soul arose, since we've been led to believe the Sidhe don't have souls and Molly is Sidhe now.

I associate cold, cruel, predatory, etc. with the behavior of the Winter Sidhe, but not hate.

The redcap certiainly seemed hatefull of Harry.

If I have to bet money, I'll bet money that someone is home there.

To assume that Mab is 100% force of nature means Mab is sort of a high level Anti Outsider weapon system with super AI programming. But the indications after CD did not supports this theory.

1. Mab is previously mortal. Human to be exact. And Free wil rule states that Mab the human can always choose. In other words a complete annialation of a human's soul and free wil is not so easily done. There is always a choice.

2. her unwillingness to kill Maeve directly is a very illogical and inafficient way to terminate Nemesis's threat. The queen's mantle, the programming she is installed with would have killed Maeve in the stone Altar and replace her with Sarrisa the moment she found out that Maeve is infected. But Mab did not do that. She take the harder path and hire Harry to do the job. It is the limit of what the mantle allow her to express her love, but the fact she is able to take the harder and less logical path shows that someone is still inside.

Textual evidence leans to the fact that Mab still have what remains of her soul. Will Jim gave us the background story of Mab's assention? It would help our understanding a lot.

I thought you disagreed with me on this?

[huangjimmy108]

I thought you disagreed with me on this?

I agree that it is very likely (Not certain mind you, just very likely) Mab still have a soul. What I originally disagree about is the idea that Mab's interaction with Harry and Sarrisa is enough to rekindle it. Just those two, in the time they have and with the kind of interaction they have with Mab, is just not enough to rekindle Mab's soul. I did not mean to say that Mab did not have a soul or that her soul cannot be rekindled, just that Harry and Sarrisa is not enough to do it.

[123456789blaaa]

I agree that it is very likely (Not certain mind you, just very likely) Mab still have a soul. What I originally disagree about is the idea that Mab's interaction with Harry and Sarrisa is enough to rekindle it. Just those two, in the time they have and with the kind of interaction they have with Mab, is just not enough to rekindle Mab's soul. I did not mean to say that Mab did not have a soul or that her soul cannot be rekindled, just that Harry and Sarrisa is not enough to do it.

What about Harry and Sarrisa's interactions combined with other mortals from before the time of the books?

[matolilyfu]

When you ask if Mab is evil, are you talking about in-universe our out-of-universe? The distinction is important.

Pardon? 

The redcap certiainly seemed hatefull of Harry.

I just took it as an unwillingness to let a lesser being get the better of him.  When he had a chance to kill him outright, he marked him for the "Hunt" and went away.  I think hate would have required him to witness if not assist with killing Harry

[huangjimmy108]

What about Harry and Sarrisa's interactions combined with other mortals from before the time of the books?

Well, we have Mab the human more than 1,000 years ago. After 1,000 years have pass, we got the current Mab. It kind of suggest that all of her interactions with other mortals did not have much effect.

This is why I wanted the background story on Mab's assention. If Mab took up the Winter queen's mantle because Mab the human love the world and she believe that it is the only way to protect this reality from the outsiders then it is unlikely that Harry or any other mortal for that Matter to effect her soul. Unlikely because being the cold and cruel winter queen is exactly what she chose to be. If Mab is satisfied with her current fate, it is also unlikely for her to change, because with the remaining free wil she has, she chose to be the winter queen. She has no regrets. . If that is the case, nothing can change her untill she wanted to change.

[Arjan]

Hmm? What do you mean? Or are you talking about how Mother Summer said that you need a heart for it to freeze?

The one when Harry had just summoned her just before she attacks. Mother Winter called Mab romantic.

[Mira]

I understand why Titania did not interferes with Lily. She simply didn't care. But Cd show that Mab did care about Maeve. Why then, did she let Maeve have a weak knight?

I think Titania did care, but actually Lily chose well, Fix has proven himself a good Summer Knight.  I also think different things are required from the Summer Knight verses the Winter one.

The one when Harry had just summoned her just before she attacks. Mother Winter called Mab romantic.

Which implies some human feeling.

[Gman]

I agree with you there. In normal circumstances, it is the lady that select the knight and in most circumstances the queen did not interfere to much.

Now, the questions: Why does the queen not interferes in a knight selection? Is the selection of a knight is beneath a Queen's notice?

We know that Slate is weak. And I assume we agree that Mab knows about Slate's weak nature before SK. Why then, did she not order Maeve to replace Slate? If a knight have to be powerful and capable like Harry and if such a knight is critical for the winter court as a whole, how come a mediocre knight like slate can hold the job?

I understand why Titania did not interferes with Lily. She simply didn't care. But Cd show that Mab did care about Maeve. Why then, did she let Maeve have a weak knight?

The only answer that I can think of for these questions is the conclusion that a powerful knight like Harry is undesirable under normal circumstances. It is to much trouble to kept a knight like Harry unless there is a definitive problem that needs such a knight. This let me to think that Harry may be in danger once he fulfills his duties to winter. He won't be needed anymore and he will starts to be more trouble than he is worth, But since Mab is a strong Queen herself, she'll probably find a way to make use of a dangerous knight like Harry. A less secure and capable Queen however, might view Harry as a threat and might find it easier to terminate him either by killing or use drugs and seks to keep him insensible.

Butter's comment about the mantle shutting down Harry's ability to feel pain is Mab's way to control the knight supports this theory. If Mab have to regulates the knight so he won't grow to powerful , it means Mab have reason to fear her knight.

Perhaps choosing a Knight is one of the Lady's duties and not the Queen's. The Ladys perhaps deal more with the mortal world on a day to day basis and the Queens deal with larger issues and the nevernever. Under normal circumstances a mediocre Knight and a competent Knight may not be a big deal. Harry is Starborn and a Fulcrum. I think Maeve did not want a Knight that could stand up to her and wanted a toy to play with. Mab probably would like a competent Knight at all times.

[Gman]

I think Titania did care, but actually Lily chose well, Fix has proven himself a good Summer Knight.  I also think different things are required from the Summer Knight verses the Winter one.Which implies some human feeling.

I think Titania was still grieving about Aurora's death and did not spend enough time instructing Lily. Lily seemed real ignorant about the Outsiders, Nemesis and the role of Winter against the Outsiders. Fix does seem to be a decent SK. Lily seems to be nice but a bit incompetent.

[Mira]

I think Titania was still grieving about Aurora's death and did not spend enough time instructing Lily. Lily seemed real ignorant about the Outsiders, Nemesis and the role of Winter against the Outsiders. Fix does seem to be a decent SK. Lily seems to be nice but a bit incompetent.

  Which shows a weakness in the way Ladies are chosen..  Poor Lily had no choice it would appear, though I am wondering if the human part of her did, and the mantle was thrust upon her.  Aurora, being Titania's daughter was supposedly born into it,  meaning when Titania moved up to Queen she became Lady, she was prepped for the job like Sarissa, even Molly was prepped..  Mab saw to that, maybe because she does have a cold analytical nature and planned ahead.  In contrast Titania going with the passion and emotion of the heart thing, though knowing her daughter was mad could not bring herself to have a replacement trained?   

[123456789blaaa]

Pardon? 
I just took it as an unwillingness to let a lesser being get the better of him.  When he had a chance to kill him outright, he marked him for the "Hunt" and went away.  I think hate would have required him to witness if not assist with killing Harry

For an example, look at this WoJ:

For the Dresden Files, the whole point of The Almighty positive good forces that are out there is that free will is important and they respect that and you've gotta have it and use it.  That's the entire point.  They are a force of freedom.  And it's the bad guys who are going around doing whatever they can to abrogate free will.  So for me, where you draw the line is what defines where good stops and evil starts is by how much you're taking away free will and how much you're enabling it.

Obviously to Jim Free Will is extremely important for examining good and evil in the Dresdenverse. I on the other hand to not even believe Free Will exists in RL. Obviously this means that my thoughts on good and evil are going to be very different than what I think is the objective truth in the Dresdenverse.

Basically, are you asking about my thoughts or what I think is true in the Dresdenverse?

Well, we have Mab the human more than 1,000 years ago. After 1,000 years have pass, we got the current Mab. It kind of suggest that all of her interactions with other mortals did not have much effect.

This is why I wanted the background story on Mab's assention. If Mab took up the Winter queen's mantle because Mab the human love the world and she believe that it is the only way to protect this reality from the outsiders then it is unlikely that Harry or any other mortal for that Matter to effect her soul. Unlikely because being the cold and cruel winter queen is exactly what she chose to be. If Mab is satisfied with her current fate, it is also unlikely for her to change, because with the remaining free wil she has, she chose to be the winter queen. She has no regrets. . If that is the case, nothing can change her untill she wanted to change.

You're assuming that the current Mab is the product of all 1000 years. What if she becomes the Winter Queen, then 500 years of being the Winter Queen slowly smother her soul (down to either a small ember or nothing) then 500 years of increased interacting with mortals fans the flames until we get the current Mab.

I'm symplifying enormously here but you get the idea.