Author Topic: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]  (Read 45720 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2013, 08:01:23 AM »
Which suggest that having a strong knight like Harry is at best unnessasary and at worst dangerous under normal conditions. Mab clearly did not care what kind of knight Maeve hired and after she finds out that Maeve hired a weak knight she did not intervened.

If this is true, what will happened when Harry is done doing Mab's bidding? When all the problem is solved and the situation is back to normal, will Mab consider Harry to dangerous to live? What do you do to your soldiers when the war is over and there is no enemy to fight anymore? What do you do to the only member of your court that you are vulnarable to?

Oh, Crap!
Mab is not really vulnerable to Harry except maybe under very special circumstances which are easy to avoid. Mab takes the bond between queen and vassal seriously. Harry does so as well. When everything becomes quiet after the BAT Harry and Mab will have a better understanding of each other. There will be no reason for Mab to do anything drastic to Harry so she will not. She just keeps him as her knight.

Besides, Molly can handle him  :)

And will Harry ever be as dangerous as Mab? ;D
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Offline KrelianZG

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2013, 10:05:07 AM »
Which suggest that having a strong knight like Harry is at best unnessasary and at worst dangerous under normal conditions. Mab clearly did not care what kind of knight Maeve hired and after she finds out that Maeve hired a weak knight she did not intervened.

If this is true, what will happened when Harry is done doing Mab's bidding? When all the problem is solved and the situation is back to normal, will Mab consider Harry to dangerous to live? What do you do to your soldiers when the war is over and there is no enemy to fight anymore? What do you do to the only member of your court that you are vulnarable to?

Oh, Crap!

She hadn't intervened with previous WKs because at the time, they were adequate. Not anything Mab could use for important things, but enough to fill the "enforcer of Winter interests" role in the mortal world. I'd guess in the last few centuries, the Knights have mostly been killing mortals and low-tier supernatural beings that happen to be doing things that conflict with Winter's interests.

Harry, on the other hand, is an exceptionally strong wizard, a fairly good detective, AND a Starborn. Mab knew that Nemesis had infiltrated the Winter Court to a shocking degree. Her two most valuable assets in the Court were corrupted, and only one could really be saved. The time for thugs was over, and Mab wanted a Knight that could actually use the mantle to aid Winter in the real battle.

As for when it's all over? I'm in the camp that believes Mab (the individual we know now) won't make it through the BAT. A certain young lady will be filling those shoes, IMO....

But even if Mab survives, why would that change anything? If Harry proves to be so valuable that he survives and helps Winter through what is shaping up to be a supernatural apocalypse, I think he'll be in a good position to re-negotiate his contract :).

Assuming Harry makes it through everything and is still the WK at the end, I see him taking on a role more like Kringle in the Winter Court. Taking care of the real important stuff, respected by all the Fae, and not really bothered by obligations unless it's really important. (I do think Molly....er, "Mab", will have a hand in that...).

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2013, 01:31:37 PM »
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I think that under normal circumstances the ladies handle the knights because they are closest to the mortal world. Mab stepped in because it was needed even before she knew why.
  Which says that Maeve was infected and conspiring against dear old mum or at least to try and start a war in the Nevernever way beck in SK thus leaving an opening for the Outsiders to breech the Gates.

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2013, 02:41:31 PM »
Mab is not really vulnerable to Harry except maybe under very special circumstances which are easy to avoid. Mab takes the bond between queen and vassal seriously. Harry does so as well. When everything becomes quiet after the BAT Harry and Mab will have a better understanding of each other. There will be no reason for Mab to do anything drastic to Harry so she will not. She just keeps him as her knight.

Besides, Molly can handle him  :)

And will Harry ever be as dangerous as Mab? ;D

Yeah, I suppose you are right. Mab is not only strong because she held the winter queen's mantle. Able to feel some love for her own daughter shows that her soul might still survive deep down and able to keep a miniscule portion of your soul after baring the winter queen's mantle for a thousand years show that Mab is a frighteningly strong individual. I think Mab is secure enough in herself and in her power not to view Harry as a threat after things settled down.

I still believe a less secure queen might react badly to a knight as powerful as Harry though. I suspect part of the reason why a knight is kept zonk out with drugs and seks is to keep him from plotting against the queen.
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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2013, 03:55:50 PM »
Yeah, I suppose you are right. Mab is not only strong because she held the winter queen's mantle. Able to feel some love for her own daughter shows that her soul might still survive deep down and able to keep a miniscule portion of your soul after baring the winter queen's mantle for a thousand years show that Mab is a frighteningly strong individual. I think Mab is secure enough in herself and in her power not to view Harry as a threat after things settled down.

I still believe a less secure queen might react badly to a knight as powerful as Harry though. I suspect part of the reason why a knight is kept zonk out with drugs and seks is to keep him from plotting against the queen.
  I don't think it has anything to do with Mab's strength...  I am willing to be that Maeve was allowed to pick her Knight just like Lily was able to chose Fix.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2013, 06:02:48 PM »
Spending time with Sarissa may have touched the teeny tiny spark of Mab's mother love.  I just can't reconcile the idea that Mab was fanning the wee spark of a soul into a little flame, by spending time with Sarissa, while at the same time she was visiting tortures beyond comprehension on Lloyd Slate. (NOT defending Slate or saying he wasn't due some serious punishment.)  I just think soul-growth on weekends would be negated by torture through the work week.

Maybe...the WoJ does say that a human can lose their soul. I'm not sure if that was meant metaphorically though (see my note on the Denarians).

When Bob talks about soul sharing in WN he only mentions Harry sharing his souls with Susan, Murphy, and Lash. None of those are "bad" relationships so he probably wasn't losing his soul...

Bob says that it's soul exchanging so wouldn't that mean that even if interacting with Mortals gave you bits of soul you would swap some back?

Hmmm...

Previous WoJ stated that Mab have no soul, that she is unchangeable. After CD, I think it is possible to question the validity of that particular WoJ. When text and Woj contradict each other, I usually side with the text. WoJ is just Jim's ideas that is not yet put into cannon. He have the right to changed his mind. What is absolutely cannot happened is text contradict text. That will show that Jim is ill prepared. Jim has never make this mistake before and I hope he never will.

So, it is possible, just possible mind you, that Mab can be changed. Maybe, it is even possible to rekindle her soul. According to Mother summer, change in immortals did happened and as we can see with Odin/Santa, such evolution did happened, but it takes a lot of time. Is Odin transforming into Santa is a soul changed or a mantle change is anyone's guess but change in immortals did happened, that is for sure.

I expect that Mab have to be willing to change. Changing a vanilla mortal without his/her consent is already hard. Trying to changed Mab against her wil will be impossible. I don't expect the rules in the DV is not to much different from the real world in this regard, so it is just simple sense.

I did not believe however that just Sarrissa and Harry is enough to changed Mab, not in such short a time and with so little interaction. Especially if Mab don't really want it. She told Maeve that fulfilling your purpose is not slavery, so I assume she is quite satisfied with her current circumstances.

It's not stated anywhere in CD that Mab has a soul. The only mention of it was in the KC WoJ and he says he isn't sure. I'll grant that it's ambiguous.

The WoJ specifically does not state that Mab is unchangeable. In fact it specifically states that beings without Free Will can become something more. That's the whole point of my theory.

I think that the change that Odin went through with the Kringle Mantle is waaay different than the "growing a soul" change. For one it doesn't really make sense it the context of MW's quote. After all she changed (she became Baba Yaga) so why is she dissing Mab for interacting with mortals too much? Also, neither Odin nor MW gained Free Will from their changes. It also doesn't make sense with the WoJ about the beings themselves not changing but our understanding of them changing. Gaining Free Will and a soul is very much a change of the being.

I don't think Mab has to be willing. The process of convincing a human and giving a being without a soul a soul are two very different things. The mortals aren't trying to convince Mab to change. That would be impossible. They are just unconciously giving a soul. No convincing involved at all. 

I think folks took my statement incorrectly.  I do believe that Mab tried to find a solution to Maeve before deciding to have her removed.  I don't believe she wanted to have an experienced Lady replaced, be it her daughter or not.  I believe that as a tool, Maeve was probably pretty good at it until Nemesis got to her. 

Also remember that Mab couldn't confront Maeve about her infection until CD, because if she Nemesis knew that Mab knew, Nemesis would have done more to have Mab replaced.  Then again, maybe that is what the gambit on DR was really all about.  Getting someone to off Mab on Halloween, allowing Maeve to step up.  Only Mab had already seen it coming and put things in motion to allow for a smooth transition of power.  Having Sarissa hang out with Harry so she'd be in a position to receive  the WL mantle.  And having a back-up (Molly) in case that didn't work out. 

I don't believe Mab being there when it all went down was actually part of the plan.  I think Mab was saddend at the need to remove a good tool even more so than having her daughter killed.  The fact that it's a two-fer just confuses things.  "Mab would sacrifice everything in winter ... and not even have to add sugar to her tea..." is great, but it doesn't really mean that she wants to do it.  And anytime someone is of that mindset, they usually don't expect to send their own family to the front lines.

As to her soul.  I think she still has her soul.  But if you look at it as though it's on a spectrum from light (heavely) to black (hellish), her search for and grasping for power has pushed her toward the black end of the spectrum.  CAN she be bought back to the light end?  Probably.  But it'd take a GREAT DEAL of changes for it to occur, and according to the Mothers it would take a great deal of time.

The WoJ wasn't from Mabs perspective. It's not Mab herself saying that. It is a direct statement from the author that Mab wouldn't give a crap if she had to sacrifice anyone in Winter.

As I remember there was some controversial problems with earlier book that bugs me, but I would have to look after them to get some proves. But one way or another as a good Catholic I decline sola scriptura philosophy and takes WoJ as part of canon itself ;) Therefore I believe that Mab's behaviour in CD doesn't prove that she has her soul. She can have feeling - soulless doesn't mean emotionless, she can have memories of her mortal life. That isn't contrary to her mantle. After all in Winter lone wolf dies, but pack survievs. Winter is cruel, but it isn't mad cruelty. Maeve lost her soul too, but she didn't lose her feelings.

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.
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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2013, 07:05:37 PM »
Quote

When Bob talks about soul sharing in WN he only mentions Harry sharing his souls with Susan, Murphy, and Lash. None of those are "bad" relationships so he probably wasn't losing his soul...
  I do not remember it as sharing souls so much as hugging, exchanges of affection restore the soul.. Thus because Harry got a bit worried when he found out that soul fire runs off of his soul, Bob told him that "human" contact and affection restores it again.  However as of CD, Harry says what Bob says is a start, but in truth he didn't know much about it, that a soul or souls are much more and much more complicated than Bob's simple explanation.

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2013, 07:11:32 PM »
Maybe...the WoJ does say that a human can lose their soul. I'm not sure if that was meant metaphorically though (see my note on the Denarians).

When Bob talks about soul sharing in WN he only mentions Harry sharing his souls with Susan, Murphy, and Lash. None of those are "bad" relationships so he probably wasn't losing his soul...

Bob says that it's soul exchanging so wouldn't that mean that even if interacting with Mortals gave you bits of soul you would swap some back?

Hmmm...

It's not stated anywhere in CD that Mab has a soul. The only mention of it was in the KC WoJ and he says he isn't sure. I'll grant that it's ambiguous.

The WoJ specifically does not state that Mab is unchangeable. In fact it specifically states that beings without Free Will can become something more. That's the whole point of my theory.

I think that the change that Odin went through with the Kringle Mantle is waaay different than the "growing a soul" change. For one it doesn't really make sense it the context of MW's quote. After all she changed (she became Baba Yaga) so why is she dissing Mab for interacting with mortals too much? Also, neither Odin nor MW gained Free Will from their changes. It also doesn't make sense with the WoJ about the beings themselves not changing but our understanding of them changing. Gaining Free Will and a soul is very much a change of the being.

I don't think Mab has to be willing. The process of convincing a human and giving a being without a soul a soul are two very different things. The mortals aren't trying to convince Mab to change. That would be impossible. They are just unconciously giving a soul. No convincing involved at all. 

The WoJ wasn't from Mabs perspective. It's not Mab herself saying that. It is a direct statement from the author that Mab wouldn't give a crap if she had to sacrifice anyone in Winter.

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.

I have to disagree with your conclusions here. Sometimes the person most willing to sacrifice themselves and everything they have is the person driven by love.

Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.

the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2013, 07:24:51 PM »
Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.
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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2013, 07:35:03 PM »
You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D
  No, but since Mother Winter doesn't have as much or any contact with humanity like Mab, it is hard to say how good her judgement is on the matter.  As Mother Summer explained, for all the contact etc with humanity, at the end of the day, the Fae are still not human.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2013, 09:26:28 PM »
The WoJ wasn't from Mabs perspective. It's not Mab herself saying that. It is a direct statement from the author that Mab wouldn't give a crap if she had to sacrifice anyone in Winter.

Mab can have feelings. Those feeling will be along the lines of appreciation or sadism. Not things like sentiment or love.

Maeves had feelings yes. They were feelings entirely in line with her Mantle. I didn't see Maeve being kind or sentimental.

I don't see it that way.  I believe that she DOES give a crap, but that if it were necessary she wouldn't have any problem with it.  Not the same as not caring about it.  Then when you involve family, feelings are really different.  She was OBVIOUSLY upset about having to have her daughter killed.  Not that she wasn't going to do it, but she didn't want to do it.  It was necessary and it served as a statement to the supernatural community.  Both that she was even willing to do what needed to be done, even against family, and that her knew Knight could handle it.
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Offline matolilyfu

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2013, 09:39:19 PM »
I have to disagree with your conclusions here. Sometimes the person most willing to sacrifice themselves and everything they have is the person driven by love.

Mab knows that if she fails, the outsiders will eat everything on earth. she will sacrifice herself and every soldier under her command to stop this.

the difference between a monster and a hero is what your are willing to die for.
I'm having trouble with your line of thinking here, (although Ms Duck, you have my utmost respect).  I think Mab guards the Gate because it is part of what she is.  There is nothing to even hint she cares in the slightest for Earth or mortals - both are inconsequential, except for rare occasions when she can utilize one mortal or another toward her purpose.  The outsiders are a threat to the fae as much as humankind, but I genuinely don't know if that matters to Mab.  She is who and what she is and does what she has to do in whatever ways she deems appropriate, (those ways, imo, are often objectionable).

I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept.  I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms.  But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind.  Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?

You doubt Mother Winters word? She can not lie you know ;D
Titania can't lie either and she said Mab believes in reason, logic and calculation and MW said Mab is a too much of a romantic.    I get sooo confused.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2013, 09:43:34 PM »
I followed other threads where posters argued that Mab shouldn't be considered evil, because she isn't human and evil is a human concept.  I have trouble not thinking of Mab as evil, because I am human and think in those terms.  But as I am not above self-contradiction, I cannot imagine thinking of Mab as heroic, (another human concept), even if she were to die and by doing so saved Earth and humankind.  Is it heroic to die and happen to save something that means nothing to you at the same time?

You mean kind of like equating Mab to a grenade.  It's purpose is to blow something up and kill.  If in doing so, it ends the war, is the grenade a hero?

Typically no.

At the same time, a grende while extremely dangereous, it it not evil.  It just IS.
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Offline matolilyfu

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2013, 11:23:08 PM »
At the same time, a grende while extremely dangereous, it it not evil.  It just IS.
A grenade has one purpose - it go BOOM.  It makes no determination of the appropriate time to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate place to go boom.  It makes no determination of the appropriate way to go boom.  A grenade just IS, but Mab IS, while making determinations.

Mab had to prove to Harry that his debt had been transferred to her, so she caused him to stab himself in the hand with a letter opener.  Then (SK) -
Quote
"Your hand yet pains you?" she asked.
"What do you think?"
Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up
through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed...
"I did that just for spite."
Then regarding the punishment of Lloyd Slate (Changes) -
Quote
"For a time, I was contented to torment him to the edge of sanity. Then I set out to see how far over the edge a mortal could go."
Yes, I know he committed treason.  Yes, I know she needed to deter others from acting against her.  But...

I have a difficult time getting the warm and fuzzies for Mab, imaging she's regrowing a soul, or even amassing a big bunch of respect for her, when I consider many of the "appropriate" methods she employs to achieve her purpose. 

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Has Mab become something more? [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2013, 11:57:45 PM »
the difference is this grenade is self aware, and while we can debate morality or soulness has made decisions that limit civilian casualties as well as placed herself in considerable danger at times.

there is some one home there, folks.

 ;)
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