Sponsor Debt for non-spellcasters?

[Hick Jr]

I know it's not RAW! Argh! I need to trawl YS for the page that says GM DEBT IS A THING.

[Deadmanwalking]

I know it's not RAW! Argh! I need to trawl YS for the page that says GM DEBT IS A THING.

Might be a good call, yeah. I'm not remembering ever reading that, and I doubt I'm alone in that. I agree that Sponsor Debt's pretty much meaningless on a mechanical level, mind you, but that's pure analysis, not anything I'm actually remembering being listed.

[Lavecki121]

Yea I think I missed that too though I think tedronai mentioned seeing it

EDIT:I think I may have found it. It is the only part of the book that talks about GM debt. Page 92 of YS. It refers to mid session upgrades. If you don't have enough refresh to pay for the powers you can go into GM debt. This is the only thing I could find that could be what you are talking about

[Hick Jr]

That's probably it.

[Deadmanwalking]

That's...not a general rule about FP spending at all. It's specific to getting new powers, and only allowed even then if you can't pay for them out of FP. Again, I'm not saying that being able to take Sponsor Debt should cost anything...but it's not a default of the system that all characters can do it, either.

[Hick Jr]

Huh. Apparently, i've got a memory that retroactively edits itself. I could have sworn you could take "GM debt".


I'm just going to go slam my head against a desk for a while and hope I come back saner.

[Sanctaphrax]

The whole True Faith list of Stunts would seem to beg to differ...

As I said earlier, being a pure mortal and getting a Pure Mortal Refresh bonus are not the same thing.

Look, arguing that something should "thematically" lose you the Pure Mortal bonus is silly. "Thematically", the Pure Mortal bonus is not a thing. It's purely a mechanical abstraction.

This is definitively not RAW...

The book doesn't prohibit the possibility at all, actually.

Wizard constitution is probably never going to come up during the course of the game, in fact that is stated in the power, but taking this power drops your pure mortal bonus.

It's pretty dumb, eh?

[Deadmanwalking]

As I said earlier, being a pure mortal and getting a Pure Mortal Refresh bonus are not the same thing.

Look, arguing that something should "thematically" lose you the Pure Mortal bonus is silly. "Thematically", the Pure Mortal bonus is not a thing. It's purely a mechanical abstraction.

No, it's not. It's a representation of the greater degree of free will Pure Mortals have as opposed to supernatural creatures. Still, I don't entirely disagree, removing it for purely thematic reasons doesn't quite work out.

The book doesn't prohibit the possibility at all, actually.

Prohibit? No. There'd need to be some rule remotely allowing it for that. There's really not any support for any Sponsors other than those of Sponsored Magic. They're perfectly balanced, but very much not a part of the RAW.

It's pretty dumb, eh?

Uh...actually, never needing an emergency room or other justification to recover from damage is something that comes up...and potentially pretty cool. Not 2 Refresh worth of cool, I admit, but it's not useless.

[vultur]

No, it's not. It's a representation of the greater degree of free will Pure Mortals have as opposed to supernatural creatures. Still, I don't entirely disagree, removing it for purely thematic reasons doesn't quite work out.

Yeah, but this runs into (thematic) problems with True Believers (who are narratively entirely mortal -- Charity, Father Forthill) and possibly Minor Talents (Cassandra's Tears types, etc.)

[Lavecki121]

I see no thematic problem from having two less refresh. If you want to have the refresh don't take powers, pretty simple

[gantrakk]

I was just thinking that you can easily view the refresh as it being a hell of a lot easier for random Joe the pure mortal accountant to go screw this I'm out of here with no further consequences then either those who are already touched by the supernatural (wizards and minor talents) or those with a hard belief that they must make a stand (true believers) without either abandoning who they are or being roped in later anyway.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, but this runs into (thematic) problems with True Believers (who are narratively entirely mortal -- Charity, Father Forthill) and possibly Minor Talents (Cassandra's Tears types, etc.)

Mortals who've placed that much faith in a particular deity have given up some of their free will to the deity in question. This seems both reasonable and appropriate. Michael and Father Forthill have a lot less freedom to act than someone who isn't working for their boss, y'know?

[Hick Jr]

I'd argue that they're restrained by their morals rather than God explicitly not allowing them to do things. Father Roarke, for example, is still a True Believer despite having warped morals.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'd argue that they're restrained by their morals rather than God explicitly not allowing them to do things. Father Roarke, for example, is still a True Believer despite having warped morals.

We actually have zero evidence of that, and given how Guide My Hand (a True Believer requirement) works, it seems highly unlikely.

[Sanctaphrax]

No, it's not. It's a representation of the greater degree of free will Pure Mortals have as opposed to supernatural creatures. Still, I don't entirely disagree, removing it for purely thematic reasons doesn't quite work out.

Mortals who've placed that much faith in a particular deity have given up some of their free will to the deity in question. This seems both reasonable and appropriate. Michael and Father Forthill have a lot less freedom to act than someone who isn't working for their boss, y'know?

The White God is all about enhancing and promoting free will. He doesn't take it away.

Anyway, this sort of thing is easy to come up with if you're starting from the assumption that Refresh makes sense as a thematic thing and then working to justify that.

But no matter how many justifications you come up with, the cracks in the original idea will show through.

Why does becoming famous for my sword skills (stunt moving Reputation to Weapons) reduce my free will?

Why does training to become a great locksmith (Burglary stunt) reduce my free will?

Why is my free will affected by the number of people who know that knives soaked in moose urine are deadly to me?

I can come up with this stuff all day. If you want to justify it all, you'll have to twist your definition of free will into pretzels.

The Refresh-freedom thing only works in a very broad sense. It totally collapses when you look at it point-by-point. So you shouldn't use it to back up specific points; it never works at that scale.

Prohibit? No. There'd need to be some rule remotely allowing it for that. There's really not any support for any Sponsors other than those of Sponsored Magic. They're perfectly balanced, but very much not a part of the RAW.

There's as much RAW support for non-magical sponsors as there is for the existence of a character named Alphonse Whitwell.

Being sponsored by the police is no less RAW than naming your character Alphonse Whitwell.

Uh...actually, never needing an emergency room or other justification to recover from damage is something that comes up...and potentially pretty cool. Not 2 Refresh worth of cool, I admit, but it's not useless.

I guess whether it's useful depends on the game.

Thing is, either the Power is inappropriately costed at 0 or it's inappropriately costed at 2. Can't be fair at both costs.