EvoThaum Focus Item

[Dr.FunLove]

Aye...and role-play. My point was the power is justified because it isn't free or without hooks.

[Mrmdubois]

Your first paragraph (essentially equivalent to my interpretation) seems to be directly contradicted by every paragraph that follows.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy?  Or am I misinterpreting your intent?

You might be misinterpreting, but I might not be explaining clearly.

Basically my first paragraph is saying that using Evothaum to perform attack options is really the same as using Evocation in terms of how it's accomplished.  The portfolio of the sponsored magic dictates the flavor of your combat casting just like an element would.  Technically you're using a speedy ritual to accomplish those actions, but all shifts being equal it looks like evocation with a different "element."  Of course since you can do a ritual at the speed of evocation, and rituals tend to have broader applicability than the four options of combat magic, you get the rest of what I said tacked on.

[Tedronai]

Basically my first paragraph is saying that using Evothaum to perform attack options is really the same as using Evocation in terms of how it's accomplished.  The portfolio of the sponsored magic dictates the flavor of your combat casting just like an element would.  Technically you're using a speedy ritual to accomplish those actions, but all shifts being equal it looks like evocation with a different "element."  Of course since you can do a ritual at the speed of evocation, and rituals tend to have broader applicability than the four options of combat magic, you get the rest of what I said tacked on.

For that portion that is 'tacked on', then, where is the 'evocation's methods' portion of 'evocations speed and methods'?

It seems to me, then, that you're talking about using two systems depending on how the ritual is being described.  If it's being described as an attack, you're using the evocation system, but if it's being described as something less tangible to the conflict resolution system, you're using (edit: a slightly modified form of) the thaumaturgy system.
This confuses me.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't understand what sanctaphrax means by when he says thaumaturgy blocks are less convenient.

You need a threshold for a ward. You can't just cast a Harry-style shield spell using the Thaumaturgy time-scale.

I still don't understand why thaumaturgical attacks don't have weapon ratings...

No special reason, as far as I know. They simply don't.

Check out Sells' killing spell. Accuracy 36, weapon 0.

And that's not just a weird example, it's consistent with the rules elsewhere. You cast an X-shift attack-type spell, you get X accuracy and no weapon rating.

PS: Given the fairly open-ended nature of Thaumaturgy a GM could allow weapon ratings on rituals or convenient ritual blocks without actually contradicting the rules, but that sort of thing is in house rules territory and not really possible to discuss here.

[Dr.FunLove]

I question the ward threshold rule with an example: how is the ward used by the Merlin and the Gatekeeper against the Red Court army in Dead Beat pulled off? I doubt there was a "threshold" in the NeverNever. Thoughts?

[Tedronai]

I'm away from books at the moment, but maybe someone else could confirm on my behalf:
Isn't there a rather key 'weasel word' in the text describing the relationship between wards and thresholds?

[Deadmanwalking]

I question the ward threshold rule with an example: how is the ward used by the Merlin and the Gatekeeper against the Red Court army in Dead Beat pulled off? I doubt there was a "threshold" in the NeverNever. Thoughts?

Guess: It was done in the gateway between the real world and the Nevernever. I'd say those pretty clearly have a Threshold equivalent.

[Dr.FunLove]

All I see with Wards and Thresholds is the language that says a ward acts similar to a threshold. It is also described a very potent block. Perhaps someone can point to me the section where a threshold is a requirement for a ward?

EDIT:
@Deadmanwalking
I would have to re-read that part of Dead Beat, but that isn't how I recall seeing it happening. Ultimately I think that is one of those gray area examples that can be interpreted in different ways.

[Deadmanwalking]

All I see with Wards and Thresholds is the language that says a ward acts similar to a threshold. It is also described a very potent block. Perhaps someone can point to me the section where a threshold is a requirement for a ward?

EDIT:
@Deadmanwalking
I would have to re-read that part of Dead Beat, but that isn't how I recall seeing it happening. Ultimately I think that is one of those gray area examples that can be interpreted in different ways.

I was slightly misremembering, actually. Re-reading, you don't need a Threshold, but if you'll look at the wording, it protects an area, and explicitly can't be moved (see the marginalia on p. 277). So that's the limitation I was thinking of.

And that was just a theory. Nobody actually describes what happens beyond him stopping an army with a Ward.

[Dr.FunLove]

Gotcha! In that I agree...it has to be somehow tethered where a block in Evocation is tethered by the will of the practitioner (thus moving with the practitioner).

True, true...but it's still awesome to imagine!

[Mrmdubois]

For that portion that is 'tacked on', then, where is the 'evocation's methods' portion of 'evocations speed and methods'?

It seems to me, then, that you're talking about using two systems depending on how the ritual is being described.  If it's being described as an attack, you're using the evocation system, but if it's being described as something less tangible to the conflict resolution system, you're using (edit: a slightly modified form of) the thaumaturgy system.
This confuses me.

Evocations methods in my opinion are to call up power, to make a control roll, and to take a point of mental stress for any of the four combat options.  My interpretation sticks with that but also allows rituals that don't fit one of the four combat options to be done the same way and at the same speed.  Which I think is permissible since the intent is to blend Thaumaturgy and Evocation.

[Tedronai]

The intent as I see it is not 'to blend Thaumaturgy and Evocation', but rather to make Thaumaturgy's narrative capabilities available to Evocation's mechanical methods, thus the 'shell game'.

I do not see how capping the potency of evothaum with (modified) Lore (or various other statements) is in line with Evocation's Methods.

[Mrmdubois]

The intent as I see it is not 'to blend Thaumaturgy and Evocation', but rather to make Thaumaturgy's narrative capabilities available to Evocation's mechanical methods, thus the 'shell game'.

I do not see how capping the potency of evothaum with (modified) Lore (or various other statements) is in line with Evocation's Methods.

Which is basically what I described.  You're correct about the Lore cap not being part of Evocation's mechanical methods though.  The reason I see Lore as a cap on those narrative abilities as necessary is because Lore caps what you can do without preparation, which means it can also be done faster and is mechanically as close to evothaum as you can get without having sponsored magic (arbitrary time consumed by it being Thaumaturgy and thus slower no matter what notwithstanding).  The reason to think about that is because the narrative thaumaturgy power you're wielding at the speed of evocation is obviously being done without preparation.  Also, the Lore cap is a soft one because you can take Debt and spend FP to raise it.  If a group decided you could do all the prep for a ritual of any complexity in the same second it takes to cast an evocation...I find that a little hard to fathom.

[Lavecki121]

I was slightly misremembering, actually. Re-reading, you don't need a Threshold, but if you'll look at the wording, it protects an area, and explicitly can't be moved (see the marginalia on p. 277). So that's the limitation I was thinking of.

And that was just a theory. Nobody actually describes what happens beyond him stopping an army with a Ward.

Wards don’t have a “scale” concern, the way that veils do, and they cannot move. They are almost always tied to a particular place’s natural thresholds—think of them as a super-boosted immune system—so they are limited by the size of that threshold. Without a threshold they can only be set up to cover a small area at most— usually a point of transition such as a doorway or intersection -YS 277


Also. I feel that evothaum allows the user the ability to use the sponsors granted magic, which is most often than not a thaumaturgical trapping, in the same way you could use evocation, ie the four methods of combat magic. Which brings me back to the original question, would the character be able to use the focus item for the thaumaturgical trapping during the evocation spells out would they need to make an evocation focus item using the thaumaturgical trapping as an "element"?

[Taran]

Also. I feel that evothaum allows the user the ability to use the sponsors granted magic, which is most often than not a thaumaturgical trapping, in the same way you could use evocation, ie the four methods of combat magic. Which brings me back to the original question, would the character be able to use the focus item for the thaumaturgical trapping during the evocation spells out would they need to make an evocation focus item using the thaumaturgical trapping as an "element"?

I beleive that you choose your foci as an evocation foci and the sponsored magic allows you to choose the sponsor as an evocation element.

The only closeset thing I can think of is veils because it's one of the few things that cross-over.

If you take a Thaum veil control focus, it's not going to help you do evocation veils and vice versa.  So if you take chronomancy as your evo element, it's not going to help your thaum chronomancy.