Author Topic: EvoThaum Focus Item  (Read 10590 times)

Dr.FunLove

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 04:06:51 AM »
@Taran
Evo-thaum isn't being done with Elements however it is being done with the Thaumaturgy theme of the Sponsored Magic. How would you reconcile that with Evocation foci?

Offline Tedronai

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 04:13:04 AM »
@Taran
Evo-thaum isn't being done with Elements however it is being done with the Thaumaturgy theme of the Sponsored Magic. How would you reconcile that with Evocation foci?

Simply treat the thaumaturgy theme as though it were itself an element, and bam!, reconciled.
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Dr.FunLove

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 04:19:54 AM »
@Tedronai
Sure, if that works for the way you see the rules and if you can get everyone to agree to that in your group!

If I had to give my personal opinion on that: an Element is an Element and a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy is a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy. It seems clear that the rule system is divided along those two lines. Evo-thaum just makes for "complex" spells that are fast - thus use of the Thaumaturgy foci for it.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 04:28:35 AM »
I still don't understand why thaumaturgical attacks don't have weapon ratings...

Offline Taran

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 04:29:56 AM »
@Tedronai
Sure, if that works for the way you see the rules and if you can get everyone to agree to that in your group!

If I had to give my personal opinion on that: an Element is an Element and a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy is a branch/theme of Thaumaturgy. It seems clear that the rule system is divided along those two lines. Evo-thaum just makes for "complex" spells that are fast - thus use of the Thaumaturgy foci for it.

What is soul fire? An element or a theme?  I see it as both.  So now where you draw the line?

My opinion is the line is drawn by the mechanics. 

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 04:31:38 AM »
I always figured that to pull off an evothaum you can assume some things are the same, an attack is an attack, and shifts generated for weapon rating and control are the same as for regular evocation.  A block is a block, and same with maneuvers.  The big difference is that you gain narratively different ways to create those effects.  Basically combat magic will look the same as with regular casters but will have a different flavor.

The real perk of evothaum is to be able to cast rituals at basically instantaneous speed that fall outside of the usual combat options of attack, maneuver, block and counterspell.  For instance you could do an Athletics skill replacement ritual at the speed of evocation.  Of course to properly get that speed it would have to be a ritual that can be performed at no prep meaning it will be capped by your Lore and Lore Foci, and any Debt you're willing to accrue to make your spell go through or to ramp up its power.

It doesn't actually remove complexity at all this way, which implies to me getting more bang for your buck from an evothaum shift than a regular spell powering shift, so there isn't really anything changing except the speed at which the spell is being cast.  And that particular change mostly just speeds up play without getting too overpowered.

That being the way I interpreted it, then I would allow Thaumaturgy foci to function with Evothaum since the Evothaum you'll be doing is capped, unlike regular rituals and Thaumaturgy.  Even if you pull off something stupidly big with your Evothaum it's only going to be by burning Fate Points or taking Debt.

Dr.FunLove

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 04:36:54 AM »
@Lavecki
Attacking is the realm of Evocation apparently?  :-\

@Taran
As a source of power it effects both - for the purposes of Evo-thaum it would have a theme from Thaumaturgy (if it was known that is!). The Evo-thaum within Soul Fire Sponsored Magic would still be fast Thaumaturgy which would act with Thaumaturgy's foci. As I see it.

@Mrmdubois
Agreed!

Offline Taran

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 04:37:28 AM »
So then his evothaum spell is capped by his lore?

Offline Mrmdubois

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 04:42:52 AM »
So then his evothaum spell is capped by his lore?

It's capped by Lore, Complexity Bonus Foci, Sponsor Debt, and available Fate Points.

So is regular Thaumaturgy, except switch out Sponsor Debt for ritual Complexity Declarations.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 04:44:03 AM »
I always figured that to pull off an evothaum you can assume some things are the same, an attack is an attack, and shifts generated for weapon rating and control are the same as for regular evocation.  A block is a block, and same with maneuvers.  The big difference is that you gain narratively different ways to create those effects.  Basically combat magic will look the same as with regular casters but will have a different flavor.

The real perk of evothaum is to be able to cast rituals at basically instantaneous speed that fall outside of the usual combat options of attack, maneuver, block and counterspell.  For instance you could do an Athletics skill replacement ritual at the speed of evocation.  Of course to properly get that speed it would have to be a ritual that can be performed at no prep meaning it will be capped by your Lore and Lore Foci, and any Debt you're willing to accrue to make your spell go through or to ramp up its power.

It doesn't actually remove complexity at all this way, which implies to me getting more bang for your buck from an evothaum shift than a regular spell powering shift, so there isn't really anything changing except the speed at which the spell is being cast.  And that particular change mostly just speeds up play without getting too overpowered.

That being the way I interpreted it, then I would allow Thaumaturgy foci to function with Evothaum since the Evothaum you'll be doing is capped, unlike regular rituals and Thaumaturgy.  Even if you pull off something stupidly big with your Evothaum it's only going to be by burning Fate Points or taking Debt.

Your first paragraph (essentially equivalent to my interpretation) seems to be directly contradicted by every paragraph that follows.
How do you reconcile this discrepancy?  Or am I misinterpreting your intent?
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
Slough

Offline Taran

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 04:45:00 AM »
It just seems very powerful to have a focus item of +4 go across the board when a normal caster has to divi that +4 between 2 casting types, then again into offence and defence.

It's capped by Lore, Complexity Bonus Foci, Sponsor Debt, and available Fate Points.

So is regular Thaumaturgy, except switch out Sponsor Debt for ritual Complexity Declarations.

But by that it uses the speed of evocation but not the means?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 04:47:11 AM by Taran »

Dr.FunLove

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 04:48:37 AM »
In play though, isn't the point of Sponsored Magic to be that two-edged sword? Sure, it's powerful but it also isn't your own. It has...requirements that might fall outside what someone might want.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2013, 04:49:24 AM »
Well I don't know about attacks but it seems that thaumaturgy defensive magic(wards) are much more effective than blocks since if the opposing force doesn't beat the block strength, they get an equivalent attack back

Offline Tedronai

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2013, 04:50:04 AM »
In play though, isn't the point of Sponsored Magic to be that two-edged sword? Sure, it's powerful but it also isn't your own. It has...requirements that might fall outside what someone might want.
And those are properly handled through Compels, particularly (but not necessarily exclusively) against Debt.
Even Chaotic Neutral individuals have to apologize sometimes. But at least we don't have to mean it.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: EvoThaum Focus Item
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2013, 04:50:51 AM »
Well I don't know about attacks but it seems that thaumaturgy defensive magic(wards) are much more effective than blocks since if the opposing force doesn't beat the block strength, they get an equivalent attack back

But more limited, since they necessitate a threshold.