Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma

[Vairelome]

I would have zero moral scruples with the genocide of the Black Court, but there might be ramifications similar to the death of the Red Court, which nobody wants.

Agreed on the first part, but not the second.  The Black Court has already been substantially wiped out; that was the whole point of the Stokerlypse.  It's been made clear in the books that the only BCVs wandering around are the last remnants of a once-powerful supernatural faction.  Now, this may change: while Mavra's ostensible purpose for retrieving Kemmler's last book was defensive (limiting the spread of the knowledge that necromancy could be used against the Black Court, possibly to control BCVs), it's also possible that the book has offensive uses as well (allowing a non-Elder BCV to become an Elder; resurrecting one of the dead Elders; etc.).

The Red Court and the Black Court are similar in that both were wholly evil and properly destroyed.  As of, say, Storm Front, though, the Red Court controlled practically all of Central and South America, while the last of the Black Court controlled no significant territory and were kill-on-sight in much of the world.  Changes caused a substantial power vacuum (still worth it, IMO); there's no evidence that killing the last of the Black Court would have any sort of similar ripple effects.

In short, I don't believe there are any in-character moral, legal, or practical objections to Magicpockets' plan worth taking seriously.  Out-of-character, it's a different story, unfortunately.

If your players are on the fence, just have some Venator who lost a loved one/family member/childhood friend to the Black Court detail some of their atrocities.

Magicpockets isn't the GM, and due to the backstory he gave, I don't think this would be convincing to the players/characters that need persuading.  Also, the GM isn't being reasonable.  In a different situation, this is exactly what should have happened, though, I agree.

[blackstaff67]

Ok, here are some updates on the situation:
-The DM is heavily opposed to letting dicerolls decide the situation, and unless all players agree, combat won't happen.
-The DM, when in doubt, will side with the majority of players. Which means against me.
-The annihilation of the Black Court is seen as "genocide". Don't know what to say about that.

Strange.  I thought rampant use of magick made technology fail, like the railroad your GM is using.  Sounds to me like your GM had plans for his NPC, maybe he wanted you to save him/her/IT so that it owed a debt, I dunno, and he can't wrap his mind around why anyone would want to off the thing.  Only alternative I can come up with is to convince one of the other players to come around to your side.

One wonders if s/he be so ham-fisted if you were running a Knight of the Cross or similar professional monster-slayer, but that's just me.  I call shenanigans on the GM's part.

[Lavecki121]

I would just kill it. Call up a whole bunch of summer fire and blast it into the coffin, as the wood burns, so will the vampire and then it will be exposed to sunlight. I feel all GM and players should be able to roll with the punches of a PC who is very brash.

[Taran]

I would just kill it. Call up a whole bunch of summer fire and blast it into the coffin, as the wood burns, so will the vampire and then it will be exposed to sunlight. I feel all GM and players should be able to roll with the punches of a PC who is very brash.

Agreed.  Then watch as the Fate Points fall from the sky and the whole party scrambles to fill up their pockets.

[polkaneverdies]

This is a relevant  Woj from 2011 bitten books q and a.
"Are individual BC vamps capable of feeling affection for those they cared about in life and could they hold back from eating them if they really tried? maybe go to the blood bank instead? i know vamps as a whole dont do this but actions of individuals fron the other courts like thomas not killing justine in BR and susan dying for maggie seen to imply its not all black and white.
Jim: Oh, it’s possible a BC vamp could feel something toward those it knew in life, but those feelings wouldn’t really motivate it toward a given behavior. If it’s hungry, it feeds, and if it happens to be eating its own child from life, it might think ‘Ah, I recognize that one. Interesting. This should probably be upsetting me, but it tastes so /good/…’
If the blampire had a rational, cynically self-centered /reason/ to keep someone alive though, it certainly would, and it is entirely possible that some blampires have enough of a sense of enlightened self-interest to preserve a few mortals that have proven useful. Until they don’t."

The problem seems to be you are treating them like the canon does ("evil" monsters), but your game is not. You are dealing with a disconnect of expectations. It would probably help you to talk to your dm about what your character would know about the blamps. you (and most of us) are basing your reaction on the knowledge of them from the novels, but in his version they are seem to be more nuanced (similar to the whamps). Until you address that issue with him you are not going to make any progress.
Clarifying that his version are different might make it easier for you as a player to accept the current predicament you are in. If that is indeed the case then ask him what a character with your lore would know about them. Hopefully there is something in there to make your character want to hesitate.
Receiving  a couple of fate points makes it even more palatable.

[Lavecki121]

I dont see the disconnect. The issue is that you are dealing with an elder vamp who has a great mind for self preservation and has developed excess skills. I doubt this vamp has any interest in the werewolf except for instances such as right now where it benefited her to have that kind of ally.

[polkaneverdies]

The disconnect I was referring to was being told as summer he would naturally fight to stop it. Also that it would be "genocide" if he did allow it.
That is a word with a world of weight implied in its use. It isn't something that I would normally associate with anwalking talking rotting corpse that would happily exsanguinate any children it had before becoming a blamp.

Where in the timeline are you guys compared to the novels?

[Lavecki121]

I think this is the oppinons of the PC and The players due to some strange reasons that dont really make sense.

[Magicpockets]

Where in the timeline are you guys compared to the novels?

After Grave Peril, before/at the beginning of Summer Knight. The DM hasn't read the books post that. And Archangelsk hasn't/doesn't happen.

[blackstaff67]

Wait, the Werewolf considers the Rukh to be a good person and is currently romantically involved with her?  As in "present tense?"  Show the player the pic of Mavra as Hamlet from Bianca's party from the Your Story book and ask her if she's okay tapping that.
And then point out that her lover's first instinct towards a typical human is to see them as food.   Ask her if she's okay with that.  Ask her if she's okay with the BCV seeing her as food but for her WW powers.  Point out that in human form she'd be food...but yeah, I think someone's trying to go for WoD angst/romance here for these arguments to have much effect.
Point out to the arms dealer that this thing might see him as competition or even simply as someone that knows too much about her...a thing that's rather resistant to his weapons and can probably hex them at will.  Finally, point out that Humans have Free Will while Monsters have nature, and that this thing's inherent nature is debased with all humanity scoured from its being.
Good luck, friend.

[polkaneverdies]

Someone correct me if my memory is off but doesn't that place it as at the beginning if the reds vs council war?

If so the arms dealers concerns are already irrelevant. The reds are already at war. Venatori are a firm ally of the council. them Killing the blamps won't make that any more or less real.

[Mrmdubois]

Someone correct me if my memory is off but doesn't that place it as at the beginning if the reds vs council war?

If so the arms dealers concerns are already irrelevant. The reds are already at war. Venatori are a firm ally of the council. them Killing the blamps won't make that any more or less real.

  This.

Also, he said the Rukh has better disguise abilities than Mavra.

Has your GM gotten to the point in Summer Knight where Bob talks about how Summer becoming stronger would still be a bad thing?  A rampant period of growth for everything, including diseases which could effectively genocide the entire human race or at least vast swathes of it.  Summer doesn't care about genocide because Summer believes in survival of the fittest just as much as Winter does.  Being more focused on emotions they might regret bad things happening to people or other supernatural creatures, but nature will take its course and they aren't going to bother interfering with that.

[Mr. Ghostbuster]

1. The Venatori are already allied with the White Council who are at war with the Red Court.
2. The Dealer's infected love interest could join the Fellowship of St. Giles (if she isn't already a member), who are also allied with the Venatori and White Council, which would grant her a certain amount of protection (as well as virtually negating the possibility that the Venatori would target her).
3. I would think an arm's dealer would look forward to the profits to be gained from a war.

[livebait]

Your GM doesn't seem to want to kill off the NPC, so reasons why your character wouldn't want to:

-Is Catherine a magic user? Perhaps the werewolf girl lets it slip that she's got some modest magical power, and You've Got a Bad Feeling About This... something that old and that strong is going to have one HELL of a death curse. Perhaps another faction purposely set up the Rukh as a booby trap, and is counting on her death to cripple the Venatori. Maybe not, but your sense is telling you something. I like this solution, because if there's a threat to the Venatori from killing the vampire, saving her makes sense for all 3 of your characters.

-How much does your character know about the frame job? Perhaps Catherine smirks and makes an offhand comment, which makes you realize she may know about who was actually behind it. If that's a strong enough motivator, maybe another option. Having her dangle any tantalizing information that's important enough for your character to take pause at hearing may be a good enough motivation to axe the execution, or at least delay it.

-Your queen compels you to save the Rukh; unbeknownst to you, there's a great deal of political intrigue going on, and while Summer isn't usually on great terms with the BCV, the Rukh dying would really screw with Summer's plans.
Cold Days spoiler:

(click to show/hide)

Remember, the idea of a Knight truly having free will was a HUGE revelation for Harry. Your character may assume he has to go along with what the mantle is urging him to do.

-Hell breaks loose, the site is under attack, and a traitor in the Venatori (maybe even the one the Werewolf girl hates) has sold them out to an outside faction; in the ensuing struggle to survive, the Rukh escapes. This will only work if your GM is fluid enough to rethink his story a bit.


The other consideration is asking your GM what major plans he has involving the NPC. If you're going to be railroaded and you want to work with him, let him at least tell you what bounds he needs you to fall under.

[fantazero]

Dues Ex Machina answer

Have a Third Party come in through a "Way" from the Never Never and steal the BCV
3 Way Fight!

Or do a social conflict.
I wouldn't "kill" any of you PCs, because having a HUGE problem between your PCs is much more interesting than just killing them.