Author Topic: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma  (Read 10123 times)

Magicpockets

  • Guest
Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« on: February 23, 2013, 12:02:42 PM »
Hello all,
in our last game, there's be an interesting development, ending in a Mexican standoff between the three player characters. This takes place after the events of Grave Peril. Here's the rundown:
(click to show/hide)

TL;DR Description:
-Venatori Umbrorum acquire means of taking out Black Court.
-They abduct Black Court Elder in San Francisco, who is sometime ally of the group, and ship her to execution site (locked in her coffin).
-PCs notice this, and travel there. My character sides with Venatori, other two side with Black Court.
-Mexican standoff ensues.

Characters and motivations:
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Here's the dilemma:
-Neither side is willing to shift from their point of view, both ingame and on a meta level.
-We are all good friends IRL, and have known each other for a long time. The outcome is unlikely to affect that, no matter how it goes.
-The discussion the characters held was RP'd without any rolls. Should it come to social combat, my character and the arms dealer are closely matched, with him holding a slight edge. The werewolf is about 1-2 ranks lower on social skills.
-Both sides have announced that they're perfectly willing to engage in physical violence. My character holds the edge in a physical conflict, although the werewolf is closely matched.
-Letting the Black Court Elder live is immensely detrimental to my character, and completely out of character for him. My character has stated his reasons for killing her, and unless the coffin is soundproof, she now knows that he considers her an enemy. On the other hand, killing the Black Court Elder will shatter intra-party harmony, leading to PvP.
-Intra party harmony is pretty damaged anyway, with the werewolf stating that she no longer trusts my character, and the arms dealer proclaiming that he'd rather side with the Black Court to eradicate the Venatori if that will prevent war.

So, how should we go about this? I have considered conceding to uphold intra party harmony, but all possible concessions seem incredibly lame, and would mean a major arsepull. Going through with what I had in mind (opening the coffin and exposing the Vampire to sunlight) would lead to physical conflict, possibly resulting in one or two dead player characters. Tbh, them siding with the Black Court was a WTF moment for me at the table.

If you need more information, feel free to ask.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 12:27:27 PM »
Play it out. If anyone dies, have them make a new character. Maybe make some kind of statement like "However this turns out, no hard feelings, right guys?" if that's appropriate IC, so any survivors can continue working together. If that doesn't work, maybe have one or more losers wind up the 'main villain' for the next bit (as an NPC, obviously).

Really, sounds like a very interesting and fun plotline, all things considered.

Offline blackstaff67

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2013, 01:41:02 PM »
BCV must also have one HELL of a way to disguise her odor as well from others, given that she's an animated corpse.  Ewwww.
My Purity score: 37.2.  Sad.

Offline UmbraLux

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1685
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2013, 04:14:48 PM »
I'm a bit surprised any of the PCs are siding with the Black Court.  Completely in-character, you might suggest they read up on Chamberlain and how well appeasement worked.   ;)

That said, the Black Court isn't exactly a major danger post Bram Stoker.  From a purely political point of view the Summer Knight could easily shrug and walk away if saving a BCV is that important to his (presumably) friends.  Of course personal risks and motivations may modify that. 

As for the Venatori & Venatori Umbrorum, the former won't target the BCVs unless they're meddling and the latter usually use less direct methods.  Said indirect methods could well be used against the PCs if they're interfering...   ;D 

Suggestion - try talking the other PCs into making it a simple kill instead of the opening conflict of the war.  In other words, stake the BCV instead of doing whatever ritual the VU had planned.  It limits personal risk by not letting go a vampire who may have heard too much while keeping the conflict at a personal level instead of starting a potential war.  Seems to meet both sides' motivations as listed. 
--
“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.”  - Albert Einstein

"Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength."  - Eric Hoffer

Offline noclue

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 333
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2013, 08:00:32 PM »
What's wrong with a rumble? Seems like everyone's locked and loaded.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2013, 03:09:31 AM »
The accords.  As a representative of the summer court, are you allowed to participate in the total annihilation of another signatory?

So while you may want to destroy the blacks, you may not be able to without starting a larger scale war.  Who knows what other powers the blacks aligned with.  Does summer want to get embroiled in such a potential war?

Offline polkaneverdies

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1588
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2013, 03:56:43 AM »
The situation seems to be whether  or not he will interfere with a 3rd party wiping out the blamps.

Magicpockets

  • Guest
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 08:48:23 AM »
The situation seems to be whether  or not he will interfere with a 3rd party wiping out the blamps.

This is indeed the case. The character would prevent the other PCs from stopping the execution, and carry it out himself if no one else is able to. Whether or not he will further participate in the annihilation of the BC is open right now.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2013, 12:34:33 PM »
My point is helping out that 3rd party wipe out the blamps may pull the summer court into a war with another powerful faction.  My point is that you may not be able to help or participate in such a thing.

Magicpockets

  • Guest
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 01:34:02 PM »
My point is helping out that 3rd party wipe out the blamps may pull the summer court into a war with another powerful faction.  My point is that you may not be able to help or participate in such a thing.

Does "preventing another third party from interfering" count? Especially if said party is not a signatory.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 01:38:24 PM »
I wouldn't think you'd need to participate in either case.  Helping the BCV could possibly garner allies...but probably not.  I do think that actively helping any 3rd party destroy a signatory would open a can of worms.  Which might be fun, but it might also be a significant reason to step aside in the matter.

Offline Vairelome

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 904
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 01:48:01 PM »
My point is helping out that 3rd party wipe out the blamps may pull the summer court into a war with another powerful faction.  My point is that you may not be able to help or participate in such a thing.

The Summer Court has no reason to be remotely sympathetic to the remnants of the Black Court.  Summer is a life/growth/sun-oriented faction; BCVs are animate corpses with a broad swathe of weaknesses that Summer can casually exploit at will.  Further, why would the post-Stoker Black Court be described as a "powerful faction," particularly with reference to the Summer Court?

So, how should we go about this? I have considered conceding to uphold intra party harmony, but all possible concessions seem incredibly lame, and would mean a major arsepull. Going through with what I had in mind (opening the coffin and exposing the Vampire to sunlight) would lead to physical conflict, possibly resulting in one or two dead player characters. Tbh, them siding with the Black Court was a WTF moment for me at the table.

If you need more information, feel free to ask.

Yeah, I'd be totally on the WTF team as well.  Now, with the other characters' motivations factored in, I can see where they are coming from, but with that in mind, I don't see how this was supposed to resolve without being an epic trainwreck.  The werewolf is stuck in the position of "my backstory does not have enough information for me to make wise decisions," and the arms dealer is working an angle that's too clever by half.  I can sympathize; I've played characters that have screwed up by the numbers in each of those ways.

In my opinion, this is a situation the DM should have headed off a while back, but I'm also the type of player that finds PvP extremely frustrating and not at all fun.  If your group can handle IC PvP and enjoy it, by all means, have fun, but it sounds like the situation was an accident that snowballed.

Offline Taran

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 9863
    • View Profile
    • Chip
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 01:51:49 PM »
The Summer Court has no reason to be remotely sympathetic to the remnants of the Black Court.  Summer is a life/growth/sun-oriented faction; BCVs are animate corpses with a broad swathe of weaknesses that Summer can casually exploit at will.  Further, why would the post-Stoker Black Court be described as a "powerful faction," particularly with reference to the Summer Court?

They aren't a powerful faction.  Especially if you wipe them out.  They may have allies, though, that will retaliate.  That is what I was trying to say.

Offline Vairelome

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 904
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 02:03:14 PM »
They aren't a powerful faction.  Especially if you wipe them out.  They may have allies, though, that will retaliate.  That is what I was trying to say.

Ah, I see what you mean now.  On the other hand, in the novels, the modern remnant of the Black Court had no significant allies of that sort, and the history of Black Court relations strongly suggests no allies of that degree.

Offline blackstaff67

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 490
    • View Profile
Re: Killing a Black Court Elder- an intra party dilemma
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 08:00:32 PM »
If you can call a BCV an ally without having your soul commit seppukku.
My Purity score: 37.2.  Sad.