7th Sea DFRPG kitbash?

[Vargo Teras]

Spinning off from http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37066.30.html

Some magics are pretty straightforward to emulate: Sorte is just a set of stunts that lets you Assess and Invoke via magic, and gives you a form of sponsor debt which compels bad luck rather than action. Pyeryem is simply shapechanging powers. Glamour, I think, probably requires the most building, since it's a set of very specific effects rather than the small range of most sorceries or the Thaumaturgy-like breadth of Vesten rune magic.

Swordsman schools could either be built as stunt trees, or simply be an Aspect taken along with choosing appropriate stunts and skills to the school. There's something to be said for mechanical representation, but one of the virtues of using Aspects is that it keeps things simpler.

[Crion]

Spinning off from http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,37066.30.html

Some magics are pretty straightforward to emulate: Sorte is just a set of stunts that lets you Assess and Invoke via magic, and gives you a form of sponsor debt which compels bad luck rather than action. Pyeryem is simply shapechanging powers. Glamour, I think, probably requires the most building, since it's a set of very specific effects rather than the small range of most sorceries or the Thaumaturgy-like breadth of Vesten rune magic.

Swordsman schools could either be built as stunt trees, or simply be an Aspect taken along with choosing appropriate stunts and skills to the school. There's something to be said for mechanical representation, but one of the virtues of using Aspects is that it keeps things simpler.

Ah-ha! Glad to see someone wanted to make this a thread!

First off, my old group and I agree that the magic can be emulated via powers, but there are some snags. Here's what we have been working with:

"Bargainer" magics (Sorte, Porte, Zerstorung, and El Fuego Adentro) could either be a form of Sponsored Magic (as there is a theoretical Sponsor involved) or simply a combination of powers and Aspects. Personally, I'm a bigger fan of the Sponsored Magic approach, especially if you keep the Sponsored Debt turned low (i.e. Thematically Appropriate Times).

This seems to work in theory for everything except Porte. Here's the breakdown:
Sorte is essentially Luck Magic with some twists (changing Arcana in the original is a change of an Aspect IMHO). Consequences can be physical in nature (Fate Lashes), Sponsored Debt can be seen as Cursed Dice, and seeing strands can be using a form of Divination via EvoThaum.

Zerstorung seems a bit OP, but it is simply an attack via Evocation. We could argue it is simply Channeling, but I think Sponsored still fits, as it could technically be Transformation and Disruption in Thaumaturgy.

El Fuego Adentro can, again, be argued to be Channeling: Fire. I disagree with it as it does cover some aspects of Fire Manipulation, which is more fitting for Thaumaturgy effects.

Porte is the challenge. I can see it as Sponsored Magic since it allows you to "summon" things and gives the flavor of World Walker/using Thaumaturgy to travel.
I do think it requires more book keeping to keep track of Blooded Objects; perhaps a Fate Point expenditure to declare there is a Blooded Object? Using the magic to create Aspects before travel, or using it to create a one-off Aspects (like "Right Behind You" if used in a combat scenario)?


For the other magics, here's what I have:

Laerdom would work best with the Sponsored Magic: Runes, but without a sponsor to rack up debt to. . .technically. You could argue that the Debt is tied to The Old Ways, which I think would work thematically.
Otherwise, you're using Ritual: Crafting for this, which technically works due to the time involved with making each rune, but doesn't work with a fast-carve/temporary use.

Glamour is a bit of a challenge. To make it easy, I'd go with Sponsored Magic (because it technically is; you are counting on the Legends and the magic granted to Avalon from the Graal/the Sidhe), and all effects have to be tied to a heroic figure. Debt can be just simply free compels or the need to act in accordance with the various rules the Sidhe follow/expect.
Alternatively, you could set it up as a collection of powers, one for each legend. This becomes tedious to scale the levels, but it could, theoretically, work.

Pyeryem seems simple, but is a challenge. If you want to be quick about it, make them buy True Shapeshifter and Modular Abilities. I don't think it works for a "starting" Pyeryem, though. Instead, I think I would slightly raise the cost of Beast Change (to -2 allow a second form and a new skill shuffle; or leave it at -1 and require an expenditure of a FP to transform to be more in sync with the original game) and stick with Modular Abilities. As the player gets more "experience" and links to more animals, they can move up to True Shapeshifter and more powers.
Alternatively, you can use Sponsored Magic (since it is Matushka that grants the power), but then you get into the HUGE debate regarding using Thaumaturgy emulating other powers.


That's what I have on the magic; I have other notes for Shamanism and Swordsmanship, but I don't want to have a HUGE post (and I have to get some things done).

[Crion]

Okay, now that I've taken care of some of the necessary things, here's more of the notes!

Swordsman Schools were a bit of a challenge, as they don't really involve powers. We were thinking of the following approaches:

Approach 1: Aspects, Stunts and Maneuvers
This is just like it says. We make sure there is an Aspect to denote the type of swordsman (rank and school; "Snedig Journeyman", "Grand Master of Aldana and Gallegos", etc), and emulate most of the abilities of the school with maneuvers; disarms, grapples and the like are already covered while flashy things like Double Parry, Tagging, Binding, etc are simply maneuvers, and some of the powers are simply various effects, like weapon breaking. Some of the abilities don't translate over directly; Drexel's stances (unless you do a maneuver each time), Aldana's Focus Dice (unless you spend the actions on maneuvers, again), the extra damage and increased defense (Fate Point expenditures or, again, maneuvers), among others.
Some of them may work out as stunts, but would have to be designed. Other schools may give a reason why a character should have a stunt, such as Two Weapon Fighting for schools like Yael and Boucher.

Approach 2: New Skills
The more I thought of this one, the more I hated it. It just felt too much like a point dump, which was one of the complaints I had in the original 7th Sea system for skills.
Alternatively, we did consider using something like PDQ's skill system and making the school act as it's own skill, warranting the use of the weapon(s), knowledge of the school and similar opposing schools, and to warrant the use of the various maneuvers that would be taught the school.

Approach 3: Powers
I wasn't too keen on this one, but it could be valid. Take the various abilities from each school, turn them into something equivalent to a weak power/strong stunt, and let loose that way. It could work, especially now that we have Fate Core to help us with various stunt/power creation.


Final Note: Swordsman's Guild
One thing we didn't do was make any progress on the concept of the Guild. Being a member gives you some fun things, and could perhaps be worth the 1 Refresh, but it could also be tied to the school Aspect, and a troublesome Aspect could be lacking the Guild Formality. Opinions?



So that's what I have on the approach to swordsman schools. I'll try to hop on again later tonight and post the few notes on Shamanism.

[Crion]

Okay, next up: Shamanism!

First off, all of the Shamanism is different from each other, sometimes drastically. Many of them should be able to be emulated with powers, other may need to be stunts instead due to the scale.

Keep in mind I'm not touching the stuff from Cathay/Crescent Empire, as I could be here all day (and it would require me to backtrack into the sorceries to fix THAT list. . .no thanks).

Astrology: This boiled down to a much weaker version of Sorte if memory serves correctly. Perhaps a thematic Thaumaturgy to simply add temporary Aspects to a character?

Druid: In 7th Sea mechanics, this was essentially a more limited Sorcery (and cost as much as Half-Blooded). Using the Druid abilities allowed you to augment rolls of others to a minor, positive degree, and the more powerful versions allowed you to place a Gaesa on someone. The former could be a simple maneuver again using a related/new skill, or could even be a power allowing you to use an FP for someone else's benefit.
The latter part is a challenge, as it is closer to a form of Thaumaturgy to "take out" the target and make them take up a quest or now live with new limitations. Not certain what to do here.

Nacht: Basically World Walker with the serial numbers filed off. Use some aspects/environmental hazards to represent the inhospitable environment and allow things like ambushes, and you're good to go.
Oh, and require shadows to be present, that's a big deal. . .

Sympathetic Healer: This one appears to be a variant of Biomancy to allow fast healing, and I'd be up for leaving it as that. But, if we want it to be true to the original, we'll need to add the impact of the healer taking the injury into themselves, which could be a reduction of the cost of the power or just a thematic effect.
The other side of that original ability allows you to use those wounds against your opponents. . .that's the other part where I'm lost, as it basically heals you and brings harm to another.


As previously mentioned, there's a boatload of Shamanism (and other sorceries) from Cathay and the Crescent Empire, but since so few GMs actually utilize them, I won't bother boring you all with it.

[Crion]

And that's it, I have nothing else.

No insight for ship-to-ship combat, nothing on more dramatic combat, special memberships, Syrneth Artifacts, or anything else. My friends and I didn't get that far since we were as stuck as we were with what I already posted.


So now it's your turn. Who wants to throw their own thoughts out there, or help me with this stuff?

[Vargo Teras]

I'd prefer to avoid using Sponsored Magic: Type for all or most sorceries; it makes them fairly bland, in my opinion. The more mechanically distinct they are, the more they play differently, and the more flavor difference appears.

Sorte is a really fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers. It gives you tremendous freedom there, but really can't attack or block, much less perform complicated thaumaturgical rituals. It's all about plucking the strings. The ability to assess any aspect with Empathy, regardless of situation, is about a -1 Refresh; the ability to perform maneuvers with Empathy, regardless of context, is again a -1; adding in a highly flexible sponsor debt, albeit with vicious compels, is probably another -1, for a total of -3.

El Fuego Adentro is mostly just Channeling: Fire. Very little of what it does is long-term in either invocation or effect; mostly it just has many fancy ways to burn people and things. What needs to be expanded beyond that is in the hands of masters, and additional stunts can be made for them.

Zerstorung is dead, and ought to stay that way, but if it isn't, it's pretty much just a Breath Weapon with changed flavor.

Porte is, yes, unique, but that doesn't mean we can't approximate a price. The ability to retrieve a limited number of items from any location is a useful ability, but I wouldn't price it beyond -2 at the most, probably only -1; the ability to walk to a set number of locations where said items are found is rather more useful, with World Walker I think setting the bar appropriately at -3.

Laerdom seems like it should be really only usable as thaumaturgy, with any instant effects being enchanted items. I think simply saying "All Thaumaturgy is Laerdom, and Laerdom is only Thaumaturgy" is sufficient without getting into any wackiness with sponsoring.

I agree with the -2 version of Beast Change for a limited number of shapes (I'd make it three or four), and Modular Abilities with the Human Form limiter becomes slightly more affordable.

Glamour is the big one; I think Sponsored Magic really has to be the way to go, with sponsor debt compels taking the form of an agenda linked to whatever hero was being emulated when it was racked up.

Very much of the opinion that the aspect/stunt method works best for swordsman's schools; new stunts can and should be created as needed for particular schools, but most should be straightforward. There's no need to pay for Swordsman's Guild membership; if it profits you financially it's Resources, if it gives you connections it's Contacting, and in any event it's an Aspect that can be invoked as needed.

I really know nothing about shamanism; when I played, we didn't have those books.

[Crion]

I'd prefer to avoid using Sponsored Magic: Type for all or most sorceries; it makes them fairly bland, in my opinion. The more mechanically distinct they are, the more they play differently, and the more flavor difference appears.

True, but then again, most of the magic in the original 7th Sea was the same mechanic with different effects and flavours. Sponsored Magic, if done right, might be the same mechanically but can be drastically different in flavour. For comparison's sake, compare Hellfire to Seelie magic; very similar in many ways, but drastically different in terms of flavour, thought, and even use.

But, to each their own. I just threw my thoughts out there for feedback.

Now, for what you have:

Sorte is a really fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers. It gives you tremendous freedom there, but really can't attack or block, much less perform complicated thaumaturgical rituals. It's all about plucking the strings. The ability to assess any aspect with Empathy, regardless of situation, is about a -1 Refresh; the ability to perform maneuvers with Empathy, regardless of context, is again a -1; adding in a highly flexible sponsor debt, albeit with vicious compels, is probably another -1, for a total of -3.

I won't argue that Sorte is a fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers, but at the upper ranks, it provides some rather powerful effects that bounce between divination and some transformation.
I mean, you can reweave someone's tapestry and change their arcana with a big enough ritual, and the Black Strand can even be a way of "taking out" an opponent.
Your approach also removes one of the interesting sides of Sorte: the fear of a Fate Lash.
Also, why was Empathy the skill of choice here? I would even assume "Perception" was a better choice to "see" the strand in this case, followed by either Discipline or Conviction to alter said strand.
And why the Sponsor Debt with this approach?

El Fuego Adentro is mostly just Channeling: Fire. Very little of what it does is long-term in either invocation or effect; mostly it just has many fancy ways to burn people and things. What needs to be expanded beyond that is in the hands of masters, and additional stunts can be made for them.

This is true; the Evocation rules already cover things like taking "damage" to ensure the spell goes off, which is why it works as-is.
The stunts could work, but also refinement and possibly just general manuevers could work.
I only approached the "Sponsored Magic" approach due to the nature of the magic/where it came from.

Zerstorung is dead, and ought to stay that way, but if it isn't, it's pretty much just a Breath Weapon with changed flavor.

Technically it is dead, but like any sick GM knows, anything "dead" just becomes "Unexpected." My best "villain" was a sometime ally of the party and turned out to be a Zertorung mage, and the party had to decide to leave her as an ally or make her an enemy. Hilarity ensued.

Anyway, unless I'm forgetting, I believe Zertorung required physical contact for the "spell" to work, and legends had it that a strong mage could dissolve an entire person in one go. With that in mind, I figured EvoThaum was the way to go, with the Sponsored Debt being anything from weakening the barrier to being cruel.

Porte is, yes, unique, but that doesn't mean we can't approximate a price. The ability to retrieve a limited number of items from any location is a useful ability, but I wouldn't price it beyond -2 at the most, probably only -1; the ability to walk to a set number of locations where said items are found is rather more useful, with World Walker I think setting the bar appropriately at -3.

I think we're onto something here. I agree that the power to pull things is useful, but isn't too game breaking, and with the "limitation" of the item needing to be blooded, the cost balances out.
The only concern is balancing the number of items, which can be settled via book keeping (blech) or possibly common sense with manuevers.
If I were to use Sponsored Magic as the shell again, perhaps the "enchanted items" could simply be blooded items? Or perhaps a similar mechanic could be used for this approach?

Laerdom seems like it should be really only usable as thaumaturgy, with any instant effects being enchanted items. I think simply saying "All Thaumaturgy is Laerdom, and Laerdom is only Thaumaturgy" is sufficient without getting into any wackiness with sponsoring.

I was looking at the Sponsored Magic approach for Laerdom since someone on the board has attempted to flesh out Gard's rune magic, which I think was fitting considering at the Master Rank, you become a Rune, embodying everything about it.
If that's not a Sponsor Debt, I don't know what is. The same goes with following the Old Ways, and why the Vendel can only be "Half-Blooded."

The only objection I have for Laerdom being pure Thaumaturgy is the time. It is possible to etch a temporary rune in battle (and take physical consequences for failing it), so I can't agree with Thaumaturgy as written.

Besides, there are some other entities that could benefit from Thaumaturgy-like effects as they appear. Take a look into the Ussura book and you might understand why I say that.

I agree with the -2 version of Beast Change for a limited number of shapes (I'd make it three or four), and Modular Abilities with the Human Form limiter becomes slightly more affordable.

I think getting three might be pushing it, four would be pretty over the top for such a low cost, especially if they are getting the skill shuffle for each individual form.

Perhaps setting it at 2 to begin, with a "refinement" to be acquired at the speed of plot for new forms?

Also, the Modular Abilities with Human Form works in my book; it just means the Master Rank characters have learned to not change their form.

Glamour is the big one; I think Sponsored Magic really has to be the way to go, with sponsor debt compels taking the form of an agenda linked to whatever hero was being emulated when it was racked up.

I have to disagree with the sponsor debt. Remember that some of the entities being emulated are still alive, so it detracts from that idea.

I think having the debt to be closer to the goals of the Sidhe and the overall personality of those in Avalon would be the best way to go with it.

Very much of the opinion that the aspect/stunt method works best for swordsman's schools; new stunts can and should be created as needed for particular schools, but most should be straightforward. There's no need to pay for Swordsman's Guild membership; if it profits you financially it's Resources, if it gives you connections it's Contacting, and in any event it's an Aspect that can be invoked as needed.

Glad to see we're on the same page for this part. I haven't found an alternative method that I like yet, so this might be best.

As for the Guild Membership, I know some "schools" were given a benefit to being without a membership, and it was possible to be trained in a school that gives Guild Membership but you don't get those benefits; perhaps enforce that it is an Aspect, then?
My only objection to that is a simple thing has to become an Aspect.

I really know nothing about shamanism; when I played, we didn't have those books.

Most of the Shamanism appeared within the country books. Vendel/Vesten had Astrology, the Crescent Empire book was LOADED with them, Avalon had Druids, etc.

Very useful, but not too easy to emulate.



As you can tell, I spent a LOT of time reading these books. I've run and played in countless sessions in college, and I will always have a soft spot for the game.
Just not too keen on it's progression mechanic, and other parts get too crunchy for my taste, thus why I am really happy you brought up this thread!

[Vargo Teras]

I won't argue that Sorte is a fancy way to do assessments and maneuvers, but at the upper ranks, it provides some rather powerful effects that bounce between divination and some transformation.
I mean, you can reweave someone's tapestry and change their arcana with a big enough ritual, and the Black Strand can even be a way of "taking out" an opponent.
Your approach also removes one of the interesting sides of Sorte: the fear of a Fate Lash.
Also, why was Empathy the skill of choice here? I would even assume "Perception" was a better choice to "see" the strand in this case, followed by either Discipline or Conviction to alter said strand.
And why the Sponsor Debt with this approach?

Divination and Transformation are both ways to achieve high numbers of shifts on a particular maneuver. For a Sorte Strega, complicated ritual preparations aren't a viable means to do that, and that's what the Ritual half of Sponsored Magic provides. For a Sorte Strega to take someone out not through minor blessings and curses to arrange their death (mechanically represented by using maneuvers to affect the outcome of a conflict which results in the target being taken out) but by simply cursing them with inescapable doom (that is, a single attack with enough stress to overcome their entire set of stress and consequences) is both rare and extraordinarily costly to her; massive expenditure of Fate points and taking of sponsor debt seems appropriate, but the way magical ritual works doesn't.

I chose Empathy as the primary ability because a Sorte Strega should have a very high basic ability to read emotional states and ties even without directly using her magic; it avoids the problem where someone has a mystical power with narrow effects, but lacks the obvious knock-on effects. A Sorte Strega's manipulations should be able to pass for mundane Empathy and sometimes Deceit, and that works better if she has those abilities for other uses.

Sponsor Debt can take two forms. First, is that whenever Sorte is used to bless or curse, it has a countervailing effect on the Strega; second is aforementioned fate lashes (that is, invoke the debt not to compel action, but to cause stress).

Anyway, unless I'm forgetting, I believe Zertorung required physical contact for the "spell" to work, and legends had it that a strong mage could dissolve an entire person in one go. With that in mind, I figured EvoThaum was the way to go, with the Sponsored Debt being anything from weakening the barrier to being cruel.

Zerstorung only inflicts damage. Sponsored Magic is an incredibly versatile tool, with even the most narrow published form giving the ability to summon demons, inflict curses from the sublime to the overt, and otherwise accomplish all manner of feats. I can't think of anything that Zerstorung should be able to do in a ritual manner, and while with creativity it could be used for a limited range of combat maneuvers (e.g., creating an obstacle by collapsing the keystone of a door), I think that having it represented by even Channeling lends it more breadth of power than it really ought to have.

I was looking at the Sponsored Magic approach for Laerdom since someone on the board has attempted to flesh out Gard's rune magic, which I think was fitting considering at the Master Rank, you become a Rune, embodying everything about it.
If that's not a Sponsor Debt, I don't know what is. The same goes with following the Old Ways, and why the Vendel can only be "Half-Blooded."

The only objection I have for Laerdom being pure Thaumaturgy is the time. It is possible to etch a temporary rune in battle (and take physical consequences for failing it), so I can't agree with Thaumaturgy as written.

Using open "potion" slots for runes scribed in combat is a mechanically viable way of accomplishing this, without opening up the can of worms that full access to Channeling gives.

I think getting three might be pushing it, four would be pretty over the top for such a low cost, especially if they are getting the skill shuffle for each individual form.

Perhaps setting it at 2 to begin, with a "refinement" to be acquired at the speed of plot for new forms?

Also, the Modular Abilities with Human Form works in my book; it just means the Master Rank characters have learned to not change their form.

It's important to compare costs with other powers. -1 gives you a single alternate stack, with many limitations; -4 gives you an infinite number of rearrangements, with very few limitations. I can see three forms being enough for a -2, and then putting -3 at pretty much any animal form (remember, the -4 True Shapeshifting doesn't just grant all possible Beast Changes, but also the ability to mimic humans and supernatural creatures, which PC Pyeryem never does). And agreed that a Pyeryem master can simply buy off the Human Form limitation.

I have to disagree with the sponsor debt. Remember that some of the entities being emulated are still alive, so it detracts from that idea.

I think having the debt to be closer to the goals of the Sidhe and the overall personality of those in Avalon would be the best way to go with it.

That could also work; I like the idea of guiding it somewhat more so that people pay more attention to which legends they're using.

As for the Guild Membership, I know some "schools" were given a benefit to being without a membership, and it was possible to be trained in a school that gives Guild Membership but you don't get those benefits; perhaps enforce that it is an Aspect, then?
My only objection to that is a simple thing has to become an Aspect.

Guild Membership shouldn't necessarily be an Aspect of itself, but training in a Swordsman's School certainly should be represented in an Aspect. Whether it's simply that you were Trained in Aldana, or that you have Rivals from the Valroux School, or that you must get Revenge for a Murdered Master who taught you of Donovan, or that you have Villanova Blood, Villanova Steel, a true Swordsman will mention that somewhere in their Aspect list.

[Crion]

Glad to see this conversation is continuing. Now to move on for a few more rounds!

Divination and Transformation are both ways to achieve high numbers of shifts on a particular maneuver. For a Sorte Strega, complicated ritual preparations aren't a viable means to do that, and that's what the Ritual half of Sponsored Magic provides. For a Sorte Strega to take someone out not through minor blessings and curses to arrange their death (mechanically represented by using maneuvers to affect the outcome of a conflict which results in the target being taken out) but by simply cursing them with inescapable doom (that is, a single attack with enough stress to overcome their entire set of stress and consequences) is both rare and extraordinarily costly to her; massive expenditure of Fate points and taking of sponsor debt seems appropriate, but the way magical ritual works doesn't.

I chose Empathy as the primary ability because a Sorte Strega should have a very high basic ability to read emotional states and ties even without directly using her magic; it avoids the problem where someone has a mystical power with narrow effects, but lacks the obvious knock-on effects. A Sorte Strega's manipulations should be able to pass for mundane Empathy and sometimes Deceit, and that works better if she has those abilities for other uses.

Sponsor Debt can take two forms. First, is that whenever Sorte is used to bless or curse, it has a countervailing effect on the Strega; second is aforementioned fate lashes (that is, invoke the debt not to compel action, but to cause stress).

So, you are taking the trappings of Sponsored Magic (Sponsor Debt), but the powers are essentially stunts instead?

And I can see parts of the approach you are taking here, as the Strega are more on the social sort, sidelined in combat due to being a commodity, but I still think that stunts can't really grasp what all the Strega could do. Perhaps designing new powers that emulate the aspects of Sponsored Magic and the limited purview of the type of spells could be a way to go?

Zerstorung only inflicts damage. Sponsored Magic is an incredibly versatile tool, with even the most narrow published form giving the ability to summon demons, inflict curses from the sublime to the overt, and otherwise accomplish all manner of feats. I can't think of anything that Zerstorung should be able to do in a ritual manner, and while with creativity it could be used for a limited range of combat maneuvers (e.g., creating an obstacle by collapsing the keystone of a door), I think that having it represented by even Channeling lends it more breadth of power than it really ought to have.

See, I always saw Zerstorung as "Disintegration Magic." I starts off weak (inanimate objects that aren't very solid), and moves up from there. With the right training, I can see it being slung around like Evocation/Channeling with regards to power and versatility. Want to mess with someone's footing? Dissolve the floor beneath them just a bit. Need to destroy the wall to get out? There's another use.
Breath Weapon just seems too narrow focused as it is simply a Weapon:2 and nothing else. Yes, it can add some of these other trappings, but I feel it takes something away. So why do you see Channeling as offering it more breadth of power?

Using open "potion" slots for runes scribed in combat is a mechanically viable way of accomplishing this, without opening up the can of worms that full access to Channeling gives.

Perhaps something to test out and see how it goes? I just know I liked the way the Sponsored Magic: Runes looked, and it seemed to fit with the approach of the way Laerdom appeared in the books.

If you haven't seen it before, here's the link to the writeup: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25946.msg1104956.html#msg1104956

It's important to compare costs with other powers. -1 gives you a single alternate stack, with many limitations; -4 gives you an infinite number of rearrangements, with very few limitations. I can see three forms being enough for a -2, and then putting -3 at pretty much any animal form (remember, the -4 True Shapeshifting doesn't just grant all possible Beast Changes, but also the ability to mimic humans and supernatural creatures, which PC Pyeryem never does). And agreed that a Pyeryem master can simply buy off the Human Form limitation.

I think this works out, honestly.

As a note, Pyeryem Mages CAN turn into some specific "supernatural" creatures...they just need to meet them and earn their form. The rules exist to become a Drachen or Firebird, among many others. Still, I can see that being part of the mix here.

That could also work; I like the idea of guiding it somewhat more so that people pay more attention to which legends they're using.

I can understand that. Perhaps meet in the middle; the compel has to be related to the will of the Sidhe, but can be related to the Legend utilized? For example, if someone used Robin Goodfellow to catch a mess of arrows and accrued debt while doing so, the Sidhe would require something that benefits them (goals, amusement, or the good of Avalon) but require the skills used by Goodfellow (archery, for example)?

Guild Membership shouldn't necessarily be an Aspect of itself, but training in a Swordsman's School certainly should be represented in an Aspect. Whether it's simply that you were Trained in Aldana, or that you have Rivals from the Valroux School, or that you must get Revenge for a Murdered Master who taught you of Donovan, or that you have Villanova Blood, Villanova Steel, a true Swordsman will mention that somewhere in their Aspect list.

I won't argue that it should be tied to an aspect; I just know that in some games, whether or not you were a member of the Guild was a HUGE thing, especially if the school you were trained in just so happens to be Guild Sanctioned and you aren't...

[Vargo Teras]

Glad to see this conversation is continuing. Now to move on for a few more rounds!

So, you are taking the trappings of Sponsored Magic (Sponsor Debt), but the powers are essentially stunts instead?

More or less. I think sponsor debt is one of the more interesting and useful parts of sponsored magic, and I'd like to see it expanded to other areas (perhaps I should make a new thread for that).

And I can see parts of the approach you are taking here, as the Strega are more on the social sort, sidelined in combat due to being a commodity, but I still think that stunts can't really grasp what all the Strega could do. Perhaps designing new powers that emulate the aspects of Sponsored Magic and the limited purview of the type of spells could be a way to go?

Stunts, powers; it's spending refresh to expand abilities. Sorte's all about the Fate, which makes invokes and compels on aspects seem to make more sense to me than the attacks and blocks that magical Channeling-type effects allow, but the best way to approach those invokes and compels may vary based on how you see the distinction between mortal stunts and supernatural-only powers.

See, I always saw Zerstorung as "Disintegration Magic." I starts off weak (inanimate objects that aren't very solid), and moves up from there. With the right training, I can see it being slung around like Evocation/Channeling with regards to power and versatility. Want to mess with someone's footing? Dissolve the floor beneath them just a bit. Need to destroy the wall to get out? There's another use.
Breath Weapon just seems too narrow focused as it is simply a Weapon:2 and nothing else. Yes, it can add some of these other trappings, but I feel it takes something away. So why do you see Channeling as offering it more breadth of power?

I'd suggest using the Natural Attack custom power to build a slightly more versatile Zerstorung, but fundamentally, Zerstorung should never be used to do anything other than destroy. Channeling offers blocks, maneuvers, countermagics; these are all things which are outside the scope of Zerstorung. It can't disintegrate a bullet mid-flight; it can't dissolve the magic of a Fuegista; and it certainly can't rend metaphysical things like someone's patience or the unity of a household. If I were playing a character with Disintegration Magic, those are all things I would expect to be able to do, but the fluff seems pretty clear that the only defense Zerstorung offers is a good offense, and the mechanics of it were, as I recall, purely the power to inflict dice of damage on a target.

Perhaps something to test out and see how it goes? I just know I liked the way the Sponsored Magic: Runes looked, and it seemed to fit with the approach of the way Laerdom appeared in the books.

If you haven't seen it before, here's the link to the writeup: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25946.msg1104956.html#msg1104956

I think this works out, honestly.

It could work; I just like the notion of making Laerdom practitioners plan things out, in exchange for having the most versatile and potentially powerful standing effects.

As a note, Pyeryem Mages CAN turn into some specific "supernatural" creatures...they just need to meet them and earn their form. The rules exist to become a Drachen or Firebird, among many others. Still, I can see that being part of the mix here.

From the subset of books to which I had access, it seemed like those weren't really intended for PC use. But, if it should arise in your game that someone becomes the head of one of the great families or otherwise gains the ability to turn into a Firebird, there's plenty of room to expand their powerset (given enough Refresh to spend).

I can understand that. Perhaps meet in the middle; the compel has to be related to the will of the Sidhe, but can be related to the Legend utilized? For example, if someone used Robin Goodfellow to catch a mess of arrows and accrued debt while doing so, the Sidhe would require something that benefits them (goals, amusement, or the good of Avalon) but require the skills used by Goodfellow (archery, for example)?

It's not so much the skill as the methodology that I'd want to see used. (Going off of memory here, so may be wildly inaccurate:) Yes, Goodfellow's an archer, but he's also a roguish trickster; shooting arrows is what he's good at, but playing clever pranks that demonstrate his foes' foolishness is how he does it. Given the choice between assassinating the Castilian governor with a well-placed arrow, or instead humiliating him with bloodless arson attacks, unfortunately-timed archery tricks, and otherwise making him look so ineffectual that even his own personal troops lose respect for him, the latter is what should be compelled.

I won't argue that it should be tied to an aspect; I just know that in some games, whether or not you were a member of the Guild was a HUGE thing, especially if the school you were trained in just so happens to be Guild Sanctioned and you aren't...

That seems like ripe compel-fodder to me; depending on how often it comes up, Unlicensed Swordsman could be a Trouble. I just really hesitate to charge Refresh for something that's part of a basic package; I'd certainly permit a Swordsman to take a stunt that gives them bonuses to reputation-type rolls, but wouldn't want to require it for anyone trained in a guild school. Most swordsmen will be wanting to spend all their Refresh on sword-related things.

[Crion]

So before I go into the section by section, I would believe that we have reached agreements on Pyryem, Porte, and El Fuego Adentro at the very least, correct?

Pyeryem: Beast Change at -2 for up to three forms, Modular Abilities for powers with the Human Form refund.

El Fuego Adentro: Channeling: Fire with some refinement/stunts for the higher ranks and call it good.

Porte: -3 for the ability, which grants the ability to pull a set number of items out of nowhere (the "Bring" knack), create a pocket to store things (the "Pocket" knack), a viable reason to "block" some attacks (the "Catch" knack), the ability to detect some objects (the "Attunement" knack) and emulate a limited version of Worldwalker (the "walk" knack, with the ability to make some maneuvers in the process). Or do you think it should be more expensive when you take all of the knacks into consideration?

Have I missed anything?

More or less. I think sponsor debt is one of the more interesting and useful parts of sponsored magic, and I'd like to see it expanded to other areas (perhaps I should make a new thread for that).

I think that'd be a fun thread to see.

Stunts, powers; it's spending refresh to expand abilities. Sorte's all about the Fate, which makes invokes and compels on aspects seem to make more sense to me than the attacks and blocks that magical Channeling-type effects allow, but the best way to approach those invokes and compels may vary based on how you see the distinction between mortal stunts and supernatural-only powers.

Honestly, I can see a good Sorte "block" as twisting the strands to keep someone from coming at them. Don't want to fight this person? Fray the sword strand; they have to overcome the Block to get to you. Fray a cups strand, and they won't be able to speak against you in social combat without overcoming it.

I guess the real trick is converting the original source into this game and vice-versa.

As for the stunts/powers, you pretty much are spot on. The Fate Core book pretty much brought up that line of thought, but then again, they don't have the "Pure Mortal" refresh there. . .

I'd suggest using the Natural Attack custom power to build a slightly more versatile Zerstorung, but fundamentally, Zerstorung should never be used to do anything other than destroy. Channeling offers blocks, maneuvers, countermagics; these are all things which are outside the scope of Zerstorung. It can't disintegrate a bullet mid-flight; it can't dissolve the magic of a Fuegista; and it certainly can't rend metaphysical things like someone's patience or the unity of a household. If I were playing a character with Disintegration Magic, those are all things I would expect to be able to do, but the fluff seems pretty clear that the only defense Zerstorung offers is a good offense, and the mechanics of it were, as I recall, purely the power to inflict dice of damage on a target.

Mechanically, you are not incorrect when you say that it inflicts dice of damage on a target (whether object or person). Since we've been having this conversation here, I decided to break out my books instead of relying on memory and shorthand notes.

Zerstorung, mechanically, would destroy an object, and would eventually move to "damage" living things. Thematically, it's Entropy magic, with the ability to disintegrate after the object in question has reached it's final stage (metal that has been rusted could disintegrate, for example).

To quote the source material (The Secret Societies of Theah, Book 2: The Rilasciare, pages 79-80):

Zerstorung essentially accelerates the raves of time, causing materails to corrode and collapse in the space of a few seconds. The affected object literally rots before the sorcerer's eyes, becoming dry, wrinkled, and desiccated as if it had lain untouched for centuries. This is not aging (it won't turn a baby into a man), but rather an increase in the natural entropy that causes wear and decay. (. . .) At the height of their power, the von Drachens could turn a twelve-year-old boy into a withered mummy simply by brushing his cheek.

This, to me, sounds more like Entropy magic instead of simply a breath weapon, especially considering the knacks it has. With said knacks it CAN, in theory, dissolve that bullet or attack from a distance. The knacks cause the mage to go from physical contact to indirect touch into distance, speed up the application, and even the option to corrode individual parts of the object in question.

So...yeah. While Breath Weapon/Natural Weapon shows the damage side and how said damage can apply to creating aspects, it doesn't really show that it CAN be more advanced when you think about it. I can see it being used to defend by dissolving ranged weapons (melee will take some thought), create a block via a dissolving field (or even just bad footing), and as previously mentioned, make attacks or create (or destroy) scene aspects.

That being said, I do agree that they shouldn't have the counter-magic side of things, but since you wouldn't be using most normal magic rules in 7th Sea, this becomes a moot point, as I think the only counter-magic is the Thomas knack from Glamour.

Just my two cents, anyway.

It could work; I just like the notion of making Laerdom practitioners plan things out, in exchange for having the most versatile and potentially powerful standing effects.

I think this one might be a personal preference. I just recall having a player carve a Villskap rune and striking down an entire Brute Squad with a lightning bolt to escape from a jail cell. Good times. . .

Honestly, I wouldn't take that one away since at the beginning, runes are temporary (you have to hit Adept to have a permanent rune on something, then Master to become said rune), but that's my preference/approach to things.

From the subset of books to which I had access, it seemed like those weren't really intended for PC use. But, if it should arise in your game that someone becomes the head of one of the great families or otherwise gains the ability to turn into a Firebird, there's plenty of room to expand their powerset (given enough Refresh to spend).

Sounds good to me. I won't argue that fact, as you have to do something pretty big to get those. At the games in which I was a player, we had one person become a Firebird (he did a lot of epic stuff to hit that point for that attention), and another was able to transform into a Drachen (Half-Blooded Pyryem; Half-Eisen with little memory of the past). So...yeah, epic requirements, so I can see that being a "late game" situation.

It's not so much the skill as the methodology that I'd want to see used. (Going off of memory here, so may be wildly inaccurate:) Yes, Goodfellow's an archer, but he's also a roguish trickster; shooting arrows is what he's good at, but playing clever pranks that demonstrate his foes' foolishness is how he does it. Given the choice between assassinating the Castilian governor with a well-placed arrow, or instead humiliating him with bloodless arson attacks, unfortunately-timed archery tricks, and otherwise making him look so ineffectual that even his own personal troops lose respect for him, the latter is what should be compelled.

This...actually makes perfect sense. So you aren't acting in accordance to the AGENDA of the Legend, but rather acting in accordance to the PERSONALITY of that Legend. Added bonus (or alternative if the situation warrants) if the situation and deeds are tied to Avalon/The Sidhe?

That seems like ripe compel-fodder to me; depending on how often it comes up, Unlicensed Swordsman could be a Trouble. I just really hesitate to charge Refresh for something that's part of a basic package; I'd certainly permit a Swordsman to take a stunt that gives them bonuses to reputation-type rolls, but wouldn't want to require it for anyone trained in a guild school. Most swordsmen will be wanting to spend all their Refresh on sword-related things.

Oh, it is compel-fodder. Perhaps if someone is unlicensed, they would have to tie it to the Swordsman School Aspect ("Illegal Donovan Duelist" or "Secretly Trained Valroux," for example)?

I agree with the reputation as a stunt, and perhaps even using a stunt to allow the Weapons skill to replace Contacts/Resources at the cost of a FP (to denote people you know or "resources" at hand due to your standing in the Guild)?

On a further swordsman school note, which swordsman knacks and special abilities do you think would warrant special stunts? I figured a good number of the schools would use anything related to two weapons, but the other stunts in DFRPG aren't really going to cover things like Double Parry, the Bind-Disarm, etc.

[Vargo Teras]

So before I go into the section by section, I would believe that we have reached agreements on Pyryem, Porte, and El Fuego Adentro at the very least, correct?

Looks like we're pretty much on the same page for Pyeryem and Fuego.

Porte: -3 for the ability, which grants the ability to pull a set number of items out of nowhere (the "Bring" knack), create a pocket to store things (the "Pocket" knack), a viable reason to "block" some attacks (the "Catch" knack), the ability to detect some objects (the "Attunement" knack) and emulate a limited version of Worldwalker (the "walk" knack, with the ability to make some maneuvers in the process). Or do you think it should be more expensive when you take all of the knacks into consideration?

I'd part it out, actually, so that someone could take the knacks they wanted and leave the others for later. Bring is the baseline, and I'd call it -1. I don't recall the exact mechanics on Pocket or Attunement, but expanding the ability to store objects (but not people) probably only reaches a -1, and the ability to know where your objects of interest is should really be folded into the base power. Catch is probably no more powerful than the Footwork stunt, though mechanical representation is an interesting question, so that's again a -1. And the actual Walking, I'd set at a base -2 for the ability to move yourself, with another -1 when you can carry people with you. It's much faster and more secure than Nevernever travel, but it also has far fewer possible destinations.

Honestly, I can see a good Sorte "block" as twisting the strands to keep someone from coming at them. Don't want to fight this person? Fray the sword strand; they have to overcome the Block to get to you. Fray a cups strand, and they won't be able to speak against you in social combat without overcoming it.

I see Sorte as being more subtle than most Blocks, working with existing circumstances and conditions to make action easier or more difficult, rather than creating an entirely new barrier or threat. That's why my inclination is to treat it as maneuvers, creating and tagging aspects to manipulate the situation.

So...yeah. While Breath Weapon/Natural Weapon shows the damage side and how said damage can apply to creating aspects, it doesn't really show that it CAN be more advanced when you think about it. I can see it being used to defend by dissolving ranged weapons (melee will take some thought), create a block via a dissolving field (or even just bad footing), and as previously mentioned, make attacks or create (or destroy) scene aspects.

That being said, I do agree that they shouldn't have the counter-magic side of things, but since you wouldn't be using most normal magic rules in 7th Sea, this becomes a moot point, as I think the only counter-magic is the Thomas knack from Glamour.

Just my two cents, anyway.

I'm not going to call it badwrongfun to treat Zerstorung as having the flexibility of Channeling; it's just not how I'd do it. I'd recommend not going to full Sponsored Magic, though, since A) Zerstorung rituals aren't a thing I recall existing by book and B) if they did, they'd mostly be death curses, which are bad mojo from a gamist standpoint. Evil wizards who can dissolve you are scary enough if they have to be in the room with you.

I think this one might be a personal preference. I just recall having a player carve a Villskap rune and striking down an entire Brute Squad with a lightning bolt to escape from a jail cell. Good times. . .

Honestly, I wouldn't take that one away since at the beginning, runes are temporary (you have to hit Adept to have a permanent rune on something, then Master to become said rune), but that's my preference/approach to things.

Again, tastes differ; if your table enjoys runic evocation, rather than a limited number of uses a la open potion slots, that doesn't hurt my game any.

This...actually makes perfect sense. So you aren't acting in accordance to the AGENDA of the Legend, but rather acting in accordance to the PERSONALITY of that Legend. Added bonus (or alternative if the situation warrants) if the situation and deeds are tied to Avalon/The Sidhe?

Probably a compel (or self-compel for extra fate points) on the Glamour mage's high concept; the particular legend might not be in favor of a united Avalon or the Sidhe's current agenda, but that doesn't mean that the mage's faerie blood doesn't have its own strings to pull.

Oh, it is compel-fodder. Perhaps if someone is unlicensed, they would have to tie it to the Swordsman School Aspect ("Illegal Donovan Duelist" or "Secretly Trained Valroux," for example)?

I agree with the reputation as a stunt, and perhaps even using a stunt to allow the Weapons skill to replace Contacts/Resources at the cost of a FP (to denote people you know or "resources" at hand due to your standing in the Guild)?

For a stunt, I'd say "Use Weapons instead of Contacts whenever dealing with members of the Swordsman's Guild". No Fate point charge, but limited usage; it'll get you mercenaries, and information at a very narrow level, which is about one trapping's worth.

On a further swordsman school note, which swordsman knacks and special abilities do you think would warrant special stunts? I figured a good number of the schools would use anything related to two weapons, but the other stunts in DFRPG aren't really going to cover things like Double Parry, the Bind-Disarm, etc.

The one that springs to mind immediately is Corps-a-Corps. Many of the others don't need stunts but could benefit from them; e.g. anyone can use Weapons to create an aspect of Missing his Hat, but with the Tagging stunt, those aspects are worth +3 when first invoked if it's for a social attack rather than a physical one. But Corps-a-Corps seems like it could use its own rules; maybe using Weapons to initiate a Grapple?

[Crion]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Vargo! It's been a busy couple of days, but I'm back~ish!

Looks like we're pretty much on the same page for Pyeryem and Fuego.

Glad to hear! I'll throw that into my docs on that collection for my players/fellow GMs to look over.

.I'd part it out, actually, so that someone could take the knacks they wanted and leave the others for later. Bring is the baseline, and I'd call it -1. I don't recall the exact mechanics on Pocket or Attunement, but expanding the ability to store objects (but not people) probably only reaches a -1, and the ability to know where your objects of interest is should really be folded into the base power. Catch is probably no more powerful than the Footwork stunt, though mechanical representation is an interesting question, so that's again a -1. And the actual Walking, I'd set at a base -2 for the ability to move yourself, with another -1 when you can carry people with you. It's much faster and more secure than Nevernever travel, but it also has far fewer possible destinations.

Kind of like how Incite Emotion and Domination are "add-ons" to the power? Make the Porte power start off with at least -2 (let the player pick whatever powers they choose, like Attune, Catch, etc, as they work like Stunts)?

And travel here does it does have its dangers; perhaps a compel from time to time to warrant this?

I see Sorte as being more subtle than most Blocks, working with existing circumstances and conditions to make action easier or more difficult, rather than creating an entirely new barrier or threat. That's why my inclination is to treat it as maneuvers, creating and tagging aspects to manipulate the situation.

I can see it as possible, but I still feel as though it should have more flexibility than acting as the equivalent of a stunt to use a new skill (Empathy, in your case) to apply aspects to the situation. As only a Aspect Machine, it doesn't feel as though it carries the same degree of fear that we see in the source material, as Fate Witches were viewed as a powerful tool and commodity, and few wished to meet their gaze due to the power they possessed. Throwing an aspect on the table for a single compel (more if you have FP) just doesn't seem to meet that in my opinion.

Then again, that's just my opinion.

I'm not going to call it badwrongfun to treat Zerstorung as having the flexibility of Channeling; it's just not how I'd do it. I'd recommend not going to full Sponsored Magic, though, since A) Zerstorung rituals aren't a thing I recall existing by book and B) if they did, they'd mostly be death curses, which are bad mojo from a gamist standpoint. Evil wizards who can dissolve you are scary enough if they have to be in the room with you.

I agree that it's bad mojo for the instant-death curses, as we only really see them as an NPC tool once in a blue moon and they are scary enough to be the plot device of an entire story arc.

That being said, perhaps a twist on Sponsored Magic, where it is only "sponsored" in name only (like the other Bargainer Magics) and only acts according to Channeling, as that requires sight in order to work anyway?


On that note, do you think everyone with a Bargainer Magic should have "Marked By Power" as a requirement, as each one is marked in some way?

Again, tastes differ; if your table enjoys runic evocation, rather than a limited number of uses a la open potion slots, that doesn't hurt my game any.

Shall we jot down both versions and see which one jives with the taste of the players at the table? I can see both working depending on how people view Laerdom in their games and how much they've read on the topic, so. . .

Probably a compel (or self-compel for extra fate points) on the Glamour mage's high concept; the particular legend might not be in favor of a united Avalon or the Sidhe's current agenda, but that doesn't mean that the mage's faerie blood doesn't have its own strings to pull.

Well, not every mage has Sidhe Blood if I remember correctly, but I know the Glamour itself was granted by Elaine having the Graal and all that jazz, which brought magic back to the land in the first place.

So why don't we stick with "Compelling the character's High Concept to act in accordance of the actions of the Invoked Legend or in benefit of Avalon"? Does that sound comprehensive enough?

For a stunt, I'd say "Use Weapons instead of Contacts whenever dealing with members of the Swordsman's Guild". No Fate point charge, but limited usage; it'll get you mercenaries, and information at a very narrow level, which is about one trapping's worth.

Sounds simply enough, then.

The one that springs to mind immediately is Corps-a-Corps. Many of the others don't need stunts but could benefit from them; e.g. anyone can use Weapons to create an aspect of Missing his Hat, but with the Tagging stunt, those aspects are worth +3 when first invoked if it's for a social attack rather than a physical one. But Corps-a-Corps seems like it could use its own rules; maybe using Weapons to initiate a Grapple?

I think Corps-a-Corps is an odd beastie as it deals damage AND knocks the opponent down. That said, I think we can use a stunt and tweak the "grapple" rules to simulate getting knocked over during the attack; perhaps allowing Weapons to create the necessary taggable Aspect and allow for a one-turn "grapple" to represent getting knocked over?

The others will take some work; I'll look over the rulebooks and see what I can offer later today/this week if time permits.

[Vargo Teras]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Vargo! It's been a busy couple of days, but I'm back~ish!

No worries.

Kind of like how Incite Emotion and Domination are "add-ons" to the power? Make the Porte power start off with at least -2 (let the player pick whatever powers they choose, like Attune, Catch, etc, as they work like Stunts)?

That's the basic idea; Bring is the base, and someone with the Refresh can get all kinds of nifty tricks, but there's no strict progression that someone must follow.

And travel here does it does have its dangers; perhaps a compel from time to time to warrant this?

Precisely.

I can see it as possible, but I still feel as though it should have more flexibility than acting as the equivalent of a stunt to use a new skill (Empathy, in your case) to apply aspects to the situation. As only a Aspect Machine, it doesn't feel as though it carries the same degree of fear that we see in the source material, as Fate Witches were viewed as a powerful tool and commodity, and few wished to meet their gaze due to the power they possessed. Throwing an aspect on the table for a single compel (more if you have FP) just doesn't seem to meet that in my opinion.

There are two reasons why Sorte maneuvers should be scary. First, because the Strega doesn't need to actually do anything to enact their power. Unless you yourself are a Fate Witch, you have no way of knowing whether you've been cursed or how, much less proving it to anyone else. Secondly is that only a Strega can do anything about removing those aspects before they're tagged. I don't know how to balance that, mechanically, but a Sorte curse isn't something that can be dodged or waited out.

On that note, do you think everyone with a Bargainer Magic should have "Marked By Power" as a requirement, as each one is marked in some way?

I don't like Marked by Power in general; it's an unimpressive stunt which seems to mostly just cost Refresh for something that should be an as-needed High Concept invocation. I wouldn't even insist on it for a Knight of one of the Courts in DF.

Well, not every mage has Sidhe Blood if I remember correctly, but I know the Glamour itself was granted by Elaine having the Graal and all that jazz, which brought magic back to the land in the first place.

So why don't we stick with "Compelling the character's High Concept to act in accordance of the actions of the Invoked Legend or in benefit of Avalon"? Does that sound comprehensive enough?

That's fairly comprehensive; my recollection was that Glamour and fey blood were synonymous, but that may simply have been my GM's take.

I think Corps-a-Corps is an odd beastie as it deals damage AND knocks the opponent down. That said, I think we can use a stunt and tweak the "grapple" rules to simulate getting knocked over during the attack; perhaps allowing Weapons to create the necessary taggable Aspect and allow for a one-turn "grapple" to represent getting knocked over?

The others will take some work; I'll look over the rulebooks and see what I can offer later today/this week if time permits.

Sounds good.

[Crion]

That's the basic idea; Bring is the base, and someone with the Refresh can get all kinds of nifty tricks, but there's no strict progression that someone must follow.

Precisely.

Awesome. I'll throw this into my "completed" notes section to be fleshed out later.

First, because the Strega doesn't need to actually do anything to enact their power.

Actually, they do. For a minor blessing/curse, they need to do a small "ritual" of looking into the eyes of the target, say their name three times, and kiss them. For some bigger things, the Strega has to do a tarot card spread to grant a longer-term bonus (in DFRPG, multiple maneuvers worth, basically).

Unless you yourself are a Fate Witch, you have no way of knowing whether you've been cursed or how, much less proving it to anyone else.

There are other types of sorceries that point this out, but I can give that to you.

But, when a Strega is doing the ritual, looking at the strands, etc, her eyes turn white. So if a Strega is looking at you with white eyes, you can probably guess there's something that's about to happen to you. For the bigger rituals, like the aforementioned tarot card spreads, you won't know.

Sounds a bit like Thaumaturgy for the big things, and a form of luck Channeling for the small parts.

Secondly is that only a Strega can do anything about removing those aspects before they're tagged. I don't know how to balance that, mechanically, but a Sorte curse isn't something that can be dodged or waited out.

I'll give you this one. The only way to get rid of the blessing/curse is by "luck" (in the core book, rolling a 1 or a 10), or basically acting in accordance to the curse.
I think the way to "balance" it is either "take out" the opponent and apply the Aspect until used, change one of their Aspects, or simply fill a higher consequence box, as the higher ones (especially the -6) take time, and since consequences need a proper reason to begin healing, you've taken care of that element with the type of "damage."

I have a Sorte write-up at the bottom of the post that is closer to what I am thinking. Let me know what you think.

I don't like Marked by Power in general; it's an unimpressive stunt which seems to mostly just cost Refresh for something that should be an as-needed High Concept invocation. I wouldn't even insist on it for a Knight of one of the Courts in DF.

True. I do like the idea of the power as it shows the markings and gives and intrinsic benefit of a bonus, but I don't think the full -1 refresh for a +1 AND a disadvantage is the way to go.
I think I'll go with the as-needed invocation as well on that one.

That's fairly comprehensive; my recollection was that Glamour and fey blood were synonymous, but that may simply have been my GM's take.

To quote the 7th Sea Player's Guide page 201:

In the land of Avalon, the legends of the people come to life. Avalon sorcerers harness the energy of the people's belief and channel it in order to perform miraculous feats of strength, guile, or skill. This ability is known as Glamour. It was taught to the Avalons by the Sidhe, who gave them a magical artifact known as the Graal. If the Grall were to be lost, the sorcerers would lose their power until it was returned.

With that said, technically, ANYONE could learn Glamour if they learned how the harness the power of legends, which could explain why you have your general sorcerers and your bloodlines scattered around.

Added note: not all sorcerers are Sidhe Blooded, and not all Sidhe Blooded are sorcerers. Just throwing that out there.

Sounds good.

Glad you liked the write-up of that. I do plan to go Knack for Knack for one of these posts and write down how it can be emulated in Fate for your feedback.




What I'd like to propose is a writing of Sorte as a power, which pulls mostly from Sponsored Magic with limitations to the effects:

Sorte[-4]
Description: You are a Sorte Strega, one of the Vodacce women blessed (or cursed) with the power to see, alter, create, or destroy the strands of fate. . .at a cost. The strands are all tied to the suits of a Tarot Deck (Coins, Cups, Staves and Swords) with one exception: The Black Strand.
When using this ability, your eyes turn completely white, a sure sign of your heritage and power.
Musts: You must be a Vodacce Woman (or at least have Vodacce Blood), and have a High Concept to warrant this power.
Skills Affected: Empathy (Control), Presence (Power)
Effects:
Channeling and Ritual: Sorte is a form of magic that can only be used in the following ways:
See The Strands: You may use a Sorte/Channeling effect as a means of Assessing the targets High Concept, or as a Declaration regarding the what is the most "prominent" or specific "strand" that you wish to see.
Alter The Strands: Strengthening, or Weakening a strand is simple a Channeling maneuver to apply a related Aspect.
Destroying or Creating a strand, which is a permanent change, will require enough shifts to "Take Out" the target.
Blessings and Curses: At the speed of Evocation, you may place Blessings and Curses on a target as a maneuver. In order for this to work, you must say the name of your target three times and kiss them. If successful, this places an aspect upon them; this Aspect will last until the end of the scene it was created AND invoked, or until it is invoked.
Any Fallout from this effect must be taken as Physical stress or consequences.
Fate Spread: As a Ritual, you can place a temporary, but relatively long lasting effect (i.e. maneuver) on the target based upon the type of spread. A Coins Spread will be tied to wealth and resources (business deals, resource rolls), a Cups Spread will be tied to attraction and affection (love spells; social interaction with a specific target), a Staves Spread will relate to fame and reputation, and a Swords Spread will empower a weapon with Fate (apply one of more aspects to a weapon).
"Sponsor Debt": Like Sponsored Magic, a Fate Witch can incur "Sponsor Debt" to support her spells. This debt can take two forms: a "Fate Lash" or a "Fate Knot." A Fate Lash is simply physical stress akin to Fallout.
A Fate Knot, on the other hand, consists of Fate working against the Strega. The GM gains a Fate Point for each stress the Sponsor takes; these Fate Points can be used directly against the Strega (but not given to her) or to create events that would benefit the goal of the Bargainers.

Other Note: I am debating on throwing in the blocks from channeling like I previously mentioned. I am also tempted to leave the Arcana Spread (equivalent of changing the High Concept) as a Refinement and the Black Spread (permanently appearing youthful) either as a simple maneuver or a 0 point power.