Sponsored Magic and Refinement

[Tedronai]

Honestly, 'the source gets “tacked on” to his existing spellcasting abilities as an extra area of focus' seems, in context, to just refer to getting the abilities of Sponsored Magic, ie: Evothaum, the ability to take Sponsor Debt, etc. All the stuff the rules go on to actually state it adds. That's how I always interpretted it, and makes perfect logical and rules sense without getting...weird.

All of that would be true, however, without having to explicitly call out a special interaction with Evocation and Thaumaturgy beyond the refresh rebate.  The fact that such a special interaction is called out suggests to me that...there is a special interaction.
The description of that explicitly called out special interaction then leads me to conclude that, despite imprecise wording, what is meant is that the Sponsored Magic's thematic groupings are added to Evocation and Thaumaturgy as additional viable specialisations (ie. 'areas of focus').

I have yet to find any other viable interpretation of that section that does not render it a waste of space on the page.

[Hick Jr]

Kemmlerian Necromancy was probably a bad example. To me, it could be read as saying that using the "element of death" is what grants the ability to use your Necromancy control bonus. But that's a stretch even to me.

[Deadmanwalking]

All of that would be true, however, without having to explicitly call out a special interaction with Evocation and Thaumaturgy beyond the refresh rebate.  The fact that such a special interaction is called out suggests to me that...there is a special interaction.

Uh...it doesn't call them out separately from the discussion of the Refresh rebate. That's what the sentence in  question is. The whole two paragraphs are:

In practice, this is essentially equivalent to taking the Channeling and Ritual abilities priced at 2 refresh apiece, with the sponsored source of power replacing the usual specialized focus (this is why Seelie Magic is priced as a 4 refresh ability). If the character is already a practitioner of evocation and/or thaumaturgy, the source gets “tacked on” to his existing spellcasting abilities as an extra area of focus, reducing the cost by 1 refresh apiece.

This can be mix and match: if the character knows evocation but not thaumaturgy, the price would be a total of 3 refresh—1 to tack the sponsored source onto evocation, 2 to pick up “Ritual” for the sponsored magic. Some power sources may come with additional potent benefits, increasing the cost. Specific power sources may have other special rules regarding refresh cost; see the list starting on page 290.

Sentence in question bolded by me. See how that's the sentence about lowered costs if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy?

The description of that explicitly called out special interaction then leads me to conclude that, despite imprecise wording, what is meant is that the Sponsored Magic's thematic groupings are added to Evocation and Thaumaturgy as additional viable specialisations (ie. 'areas of focus').

Uh...it's the sentence that tells you it costs less if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy. That would be the special interaction right there.

I have yet to find any other viable interpretation of that section that does not render it a waste of space on the page.

It's the sentence that tells you about the cost-breaks. That's pretty vital, actually.

[Dracorex]

I've been reading my way up and down the spellcasting-relevant parts, and nowhere does it say you can take Refinement specialisations for Sponsored Magic. At best, I note that the text for Refinement says, under the options: "Or, gain two additional specialization bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy."

Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy. Doesn't include Sponsored Magic.

I do recognise also that Channeling and Ritual specify that you can only take Refinement for extra item slots, while nowhere in Sponsored Magic does it say that.

What it does say is that you're effectively taking Channeling and Ritual with Sponsored Magic, hence the -4 refresh cost, with the sponsor's power as the single specialised focus that you specify for Channeling/Ritual.

So it seems to be implying that you can't use Refinement to get specialisation bonuses for Sponsored Magic.

Or maybe they just left it vague on purpose so we can decide on a table-by-table basis.

I'm not sure if I would allow it yet, because I'm still pretty new to things. But it seems Sponsored Magic gets kind of weaksauce if, in a campaign getting steadily high-powered, it's still the only spellcasting power your character has. Getting full Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy is going to require you save up over quite a few major milestones (unless you've been opting to stay with high refresh instead of getting powers/stunts/whatever), as they're rather costly, so you really may be facing that speed bump for a while, unless the GM decides to allow Refinement specialisations for it.

EDIT: Or maybe this is the mechanics expressing how your sponsor wants you to keep invoking for bonuses - and stacking up debt with him/her/it. Sponsors being largely not very nice, I don't think you would be allowed permanent effectively free upgrades to their power, which is what Refinement specialisations are. They get no benefit from that spent refresh, after all.

[Deadmanwalking]

I've been reading my way up and down the spellcasting-relevant parts, and nowhere does it say you can take Refinement specialisations for Sponsored Magic. At best, I note that the text for Refinement says, under the options: "Or, gain two additional specialization bonuses for Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy."

Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy. Doesn't include Sponsored Magic.

True.

I do recognise also that Channeling and Ritual specify that you can only take Refinement for extra item slots, while nowhere in Sponsored Magic does it say that.

What it does say is that you're effectively taking Channeling and Ritual with Sponsored Magic, hence the -4 refresh cost, with the sponsor's power as the single specialised focus that you specify for Channeling/Ritual.

The designers have said that it's their intent you can get more Item Slots via Refinement for Sponsored Magic, though. Only Item Slots since it's effectively Ritual and Channeling, though.

So it seems to be implying that you can't use Refinement to get specialisation bonuses for Sponsored Magic.

Or maybe they just left it vague on purpose so we can decide on a table-by-table basis.

Either's a valid interpretation, though I tend to agree with the first.

I'm not sure if I would allow it yet, because I'm still pretty new to things. But it seems Sponsored Magic gets kind of weaksauce if, in a campaign getting steadily high-powered, it's still the only spellcasting power your character has. Getting full Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy is going to require you save up over quite a few major milestones (unless you've been opting to stay with high refresh instead of getting powers/stunts/whatever), as they're rather costly, so you really may be facing that speed bump for a while, unless the GM decides to allow Refinement specialisations for it.

Yep. Sponsored Magic is alright, but as power level goes up, it either needs to not be your main thing, or you need to invest in actual Evocation or Thaumaturgy. But they're only 2 Refresh a piece, that's no worse a speedbump than anyone with a Physical power needs to wait for to upgrade it, so that seems reasonable to me.

EDIT: Or maybe this is the mechanics expressing how your sponsor wants you to keep invoking for bonuses - and stacking up debt with him/her/it. Sponsors being largely not very nice, I don't think you would be allowed permanent effectively free upgrades to their power, which is what Refinement specialisations are. They get no benefit from that spent refresh, after all.

Also a reasonable possibility if you lack magic of your own.

[Lavecki121]

Yea but it says that they are tacked on as an extra area of focus, which would mean that it means it is a separate magical focus on the same way that fire would be. Also it only days that as long as you have evocation so it would imply that you wouldn't be able to take it when it is on its own because it is just channeling.

[Dracorex]

And so we conclude that for a character with only Sponsored Magic, no Evocation or Thaumaturgy, one probably can't take Refinement specialisations, only item slots.

Very probably, but not explicitly stated, no way to define further short of definite Word of God, which doesn't happen, I believe.

I gather that a related question is whether your sponsor's magic theme qualifies as an 'element' in evocation, or a theme/field of application in thaumaturgy. It then leads into whether you can take specialisations in your form of sponsored magic if you already have full Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.

In addition, if you already practice evocation, you may use a sponsored power source to “supercharge” an element you’ve already specialized in. So Summer magic might combine with the air element to give a “breath of life” effect; hellfire might combine with fire to produce, well, hell-fire; and Kemmlerian necromancy might combine with the spirit element to inflict potent visions of death upon a victim. This sort of combination allows the spellcaster to use his existing evocation specialization bonuses with the new power source.

I believe the only useful part of this is the last sentence of the paragraph, where what they mean is that if you have +4 to offensive fire or spirit evocation, you may apply the +4 bonus to when using soulfire to attack.

Which suggests that your Sponsored Magic theme acts like a free supplementary element that does nothing except colour your magic - the soulfire-boosted attack would do the Catch-satisfying, Toughness-downgrading thing it does, plus your standard fire attack shifts, and that's it.

And it seems to imply you still can't take Refinement specialisations for Sponsored Magic, because it wouldn't make sense for you to be able to do that and still have the book give this roundabout way of getting your bonuses. It does mean you can just pile your Refinements into the relevant elements for using your sponsored theme with, though, getting the same general effect.

Most of the Sponsored Magic themes we've seen can easily fit into one or two of the five elements Harry and co. work by, so this shouldn't be a major hurdle. With hellfire and soulfire, it's even been explicitly noted that despite the -fire description, as the primal forces of creation and destruction, you can apply them to any element. There isn't even a problem, with those two.

[Tedronai]

Sentence in question bolded by me. See how that's the sentence about lowered costs if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy?

As opposed to simply writing something along the lines of, 'The cost of Sponsored Magic is reduced by one for each of Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy also possessed.'
See how that's shorter, clearer, drops all of that extraneous talk about 'tacking things on', has absolutely the precise effect on the rules as your current interpretation, and so entirely bypasses this controversy?
But no, that's not what is said, regardless of how you've decided to interpret it.
The source gets tacked on to existing spellcasting Powers.  It's not the Power that gets tacked on.

In Sponsored Magic without Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy, "the sponsored source of power replacing the usual specialized focus", ie. it takes the place of evocation elements and thaumaturgy groupings.
Now add Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy back in.
The source - going back to the previous sentence, that is 'the sponsored source of power, which replaces the usual specialized focus' - gets 'tacked on' to the existing spellcasting powers - that's Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.
Let's just deal with Evocation + Sponsored Magic for a moment.
The sponsored-source-element-equivalent is now 'tacked on' to Evocation.  Evocation can have Specializations purchased for its various elements.  What might something serving as an element and 'tacked on' to Evocation mean in terms of Specializations being purchased?

Again, in the absence of clearer language, additional language, or the removal of extraneous statements, I can only interpret these passages as allowing the purchase of Specializations for Sponsored Magic in the presence of Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.

[Deadmanwalking]

As opposed to simply writing something along the lines of, 'The cost of Sponsored Magic is reduced by one for each of Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy also possessed.'
See how that's shorter, clearer, drops all of that extraneous talk about 'tacking things on', has absolutely the precise effect on the rules as your current interpretation, and so entirely bypasses this controversy?

There's a serious issue of writing style to consider here. I love the DFRPG and it's authors and it's writing style to an extent that may not be entirely healthy, but, well, the sentence you stipulate would fit in about as well with the style the book's written in as one in a foreign language. And wouldn't say anything about you gaining any benefits of Sponsored Magic if you already had Evocation and Thaumaturgy, which would potentially start an entirely different argument.

But no, that's not what is said, regardless of how you've decided to interpret it.

Again, this assertion that your interpretation is fact. That's not remotely proven, and indeed you've presented zero real evidence of it.

The source gets tacked on to existing spellcasting Powers.  It's not the Power that gets tacked on.

Okay, for the sake of argument let's assume this is true and explore the implications of that. The rest of this post makes this assumption (which, ftr, I don't necessarily agree with).

In Sponsored Magic without Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy, "the sponsored source of power replacing the usual specialized focus", ie. it takes the place of evocation elements and thaumaturgy groupings.

When used on its own, yes. But I thought we just established that the source was tacked onto Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy, not the power per se? It's the power that lets you use the source in that manner...and I thought only the source was transferred?

Now add Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy back in.

Okay. This is the bit where that whole 'the power' bit gets taken out.

The source - going back to the previous sentence, that is 'the sponsored source of power, which replaces the usual specialized focus' - gets 'tacked on' to the existing spellcasting powers - that's Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.

But that first part doesn't apply, since it's part of the Power that's not explicitly being tacked on. Right?

Let's just deal with Evocation + Sponsored Magic for a moment.
The sponsored-source-element-equivalent is now 'tacked on' to Evocation.  Evocation can have Specializations purchased for its various elements.  What might something serving as an element and 'tacked on' to Evocation mean in terms of Specializations being purchased?

It might mean what you say it means...also, it might not. Also, there might be the specialized rules Dracorex mentions that explicitly deal with this situation...

Again, in the absence of clearer language, additional language, or the removal of extraneous statements, I can only interpret these passages as allowing the purchase of Specializations for Sponsored Magic in the presence of Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.

And yet you appear to be the only one with that limitation, as I can easily interpret them the other way, and most people appear able to interpret them either way, since they find it to be unclear...

[Vargo Teras]

Yep. Sponsored Magic is alright, but as power level goes up, it either needs to not be your main thing, or you need to invest in actual Evocation or Thaumaturgy. But they're only 2 Refresh a piece, that's no worse a speedbump than anyone with a Physical power needs to wait for to upgrade it, so that seems reasonable to me.

I don't know that that's really true. You can spend a pretty terrifying amount of Refresh on boosting Sponsored Magic using only Focus Items and possibly Lawbreaker stunts. With a skill cap of Superb, you can have focus items of up to +5 control and power for both offensive and defensive manifestations of your sponsored "element". That's a total of twenty focus item slots, which since you only get four to begin with, means you can sink -8 Refresh on Refinement before running out of room to boost evocation. Something like Hellfire could theoretically soak up another ten or fifteen Refinements on focus items for thaumaturgical rituals of diabolism, entropomancy, etc. If you want to get really crazy, you can buy focus items to boost your enchantment power, and buy slots for enchanted items whose base power is up to twice your Lore, and might have pretty impressive base Frequency as well. And depending on your sponsor, you might pick up a whole lot of Lawbreaker stunts; any evoker can break the First Law, and even the relatively nice Seelie Magic ought to threaten Second and Fourth Laws when used to its full power.

[Deadmanwalking]

Technically true, but unwieldy and impractical considering the necessary size of each of your 4 Focus Items (juggling four basketballs is somewhat impractical and silly). Also, a vast waste of resources compared to just buying Evocation and some Specializations.

It's like making a character using only the Vampirism category powers and no other stunts or powersof any sort...it's doable, but odd, and there's almost certainly a better way to do it if you don't handicap yourself.

[Lavecki121]

I think it depends on how specialized you want to be. It doesn't seem weird at all. Especially since some of those focuses are four thaumaturgy, which, while you can cast at evocation speed, you might not be doing that so often which would cut down the amount of items to two or three and not all of them are going to be huge

[Deadmanwalking]

I think it depends on how specialized you want to be. It doesn't seem weird at all. Especially since some of those focuses are four thaumaturgy, which, while you can cast at evocation speed, you might not be doing that so often which would cut down the amount of items to two or three and not all of them are going to be huge

Oh, being a Thaumaturgy specialist with just Sponsored Magic is very doable (though as any kind of Thaumaturgy specialist the full thing's probably the best investment available, just for breadth)...it's Evocation that gets really iffy sans well, actual Evocation. And this is only at high levels, mind. Standard Submerged level, Sponsored Magic is perfectly sufficient.