Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)

[wizard nelson]

Whoops, you're right. I combined what you said in two separate topics. My most heartfelt apologies. Still, how can you say the self-consistency conjecture applies (which states that only time travel that does not change the past is possible) when Odin states that changing the past is possible, but just takes considerable more effort (and luck) than changing the future? The two principles seem to be mutually exclusive...

not to me? either you loop time or you shift its direction? pretty sure merlin did both. created a loop in which he created DR and altered time by creating DR. the only thing this does is create  parallels in which he never made DR and 'prime' in which he did. the only time travel mechanism i don't believe applies is paradox, for the same reason odin gives, we're still here. it seems a given warlocks used to muck with time pre-WC so i'd imagine 'paradox' would have happened if it were possible, or it did

[wizard nelson]

(continuation) happen but only that reality exploded and everything was shunted sideways to a parallel without any awareness.
i'm almost certain DR was created on loop because bob mentions that trying to measure DR would irrevocably change its measurements. i can't remember what principle this is ot why its important right now though (its ten A.M here and i'm a total insomiac zombie right now)

[Griffyn612]

not to me? either you loop time or you shift its direction? pretty sure merlin did both. created a loop in which he created DR and altered time by creating DR. the only thing this does is create  parallels in which he never made DR and 'prime' in which he did. the only time travel mechanism i don't believe applies is paradox, for the same reason odin gives, we're still here. it seems a given warlocks used to muck with time pre-WC so i'd imagine 'paradox' would have happened if it were possible, or it did

The whole point of the loop/bridge time-travel concept proposed here is that there wouldn't be a time where it didn't happen. 

From Uriel's perspective, time is not linear.  Stand back far enough, and it's apparently wibbly wobbly.  By creating a permanent temporal bridge, those 5 times are linked to occur at the same time the first time.  There was no time he didn't make the prison.

Picture a piece of string.  It's linear, as mortals see time.  Now imagine that Merlin got help creating a loop, where two parts of the string overlap, like this:


Where the string overlaps itself is two separate points of time.  Now imagine a pin getting pushed through the string, bonding the two points together.  That makes them permanently bound together.  Only instead of just one loop for two points, there are 4 loops for 5 points of time.

The reason Ms Duck has an issue with it is because messing with time like that would seem to be a very high-level trick.  She thinks that it would take a WG-level talent to do it.

But Merlin clearly did it, presumably with help.  We can either assume that TWG helped, but if so, why did TWG both involving a mortal at all?  Or we can assume that one or multiple lower-tier powers (Mab, Odin, Uriel) worked together to do it. 

We know that the Ladies working together were able to channel their attack across multiple times.  So the idea that there are time-travel capabilities among the powers isn't outrageous.  By nature, Mab should be more powerful than Maeve in that aspect.

Again, the theory breaks down at why do it.  There was clearly a major, reality-level need for Merlin to create the DR prison.  If it's as difficult as Duck suspects, then it would require a reality-level need for Harry to go back.  And I can't think of one.

But if it doesn't take as much power to create a single bridge, and there were a really-really-important-reason for him to go back, then Mab and others might work together to get it done.  I still don't know why, though.

[wizard nelson]

The whole point of the loop/bridge time-travel concept proposed here is that there wouldn't be a time where it didn't happen.

except in a parallel? honestly is it so out there? creating a loop in 1 time line would invariably create parallels in which it did NOT happen or happened without the time travel. but the loop would close in on itself creating the one self consistent timeline. do other people not see this?

From Uriel's perspective, time is not linear.  Stand back far enough, and it's apparently wibbly wobbly.  By creating a permanent temporal bridge, those 5 times are linked to occur at the same time the first time.  There was no time he didn't make the prison.

THAT IS A LOOP. he used time travel to create DR obviously? if there is no time he didn't create it then he always traveled through time and created it, novikov imbodied dude

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

BUT, saying it does, the issue always seems to be, what happened first?  If Harry had to travel back to fix LC, then who fixed it the first time?  Why didn't they fix it the second time?  Did Harry do something that screwed up the other person's actions, and he had to fulfill it himself?  Or did it not get fixed the first time?  Thus, Harry would have died, so how did the reality where Harry didn't die come about?

Arguments of this sort always seem to me to be somewhat palming a card, in that they appear to be assuming that at the end of whatever it is you need to have a coherent and consistent causality with no paradoxes.  I see absolutely no reason to assume this needs to be the case - it's like assuming the Earth is flat and the sun goes around it because that's what things look like by the evidence of one's eyes, but ruling out the possibility that more complicated and abstract things may work differently from what makes immediate common sense to a human.

What Harry saw of Merlin making the prison was dumbed way the heck down for human comprehension.  Your  temporal bridge explanation of it makes sense but I do not think we can assume that we have the right explanation.

I am entirely on for closed causal loop explanations of the form "Harry has to go back because he finds out he did go back", myself.

[wizard nelson]

reminds me of the terminators time loop. "who fathered john conner before john sent kyle into the past to father him?" the answer is.....

there is no answer
or atl no answer in this reality. you'd have to jump ship to the parallel reality in which it didn't happen and thats more complicated by far then any timetravel mechanism.

I am entirely on for closed causal loop explanations of the form "Harry has to go back because he finds out he did go back", myself.

although its virtually against my nature, i feel i must give you a virtual hug.... *hugs*

[Griffyn612]

except in a parallel? honestly is it so out there? creating a loop in 1 time line would invariably create parallels in which it did NOT happen or happened without the time travel. but the loop would close in on itself creating the one self consistent timeline. do other people not see this? THAT IS A LOOP. he used time travel to create DR obviously? if there is no time he didn't create it then he always traveled through time and created it, novikov imbodied dude

With the string example, it creates a visual loop, but the two sections of string still exist.  They don't merge and become one, causing an infinite loop.  They touch, but they don't merge. 

The point of the bridge theory is that there isn't a time when the times weren't merged.  They were always merged, because the fabric of time-space was manipulated so that those times occur together at that place. 

The bridge links the two times on a higher level than we perceive.  "Time Travel" usually involved a portal/gate/doorway that sends someone backwards or forwards.  In the instance of a temporal bridge, as I'm proposing, there is no backwards or forwards in time; that point in time is the same point in time occurring at 5 times.  Everything around it still moves at its normal pace.  Millenia before Merlin was born, Merlin appeared on DR to create the prison.  If someone else walked onto the island before the bridge was created, and watched Merlin as he cast the wards, then that person could have walked off the island/bridge, and found themselves in one of 5 different times.  Assuming that the temporal bridge holding that place and time together didn't rip them apart in the process.

It's not creating a paradox, because reality was warped on a fundamental level to allow the existence of that place in 5 times simultaneously.  But only in that one place.  The rest of space and time moved along normally.

[wizard nelson]

The point of the bridge theory is that there isn't a time when the times weren't merged.  They were always merged, because the fabric of time-space was manipulated so that those times occur together at that place.

loop...

"Time Travel" usually involved a portal/gate/doorway that sends someone backwards or forwards.

i think here is your problem. your limiting time travel to this and telling us this merging of time is different. a causual loop is merging a whole timestream, same idea applied to the whole thread. basically smoothing out the wrinkle that is your question. "who did it if harry hasn't done it yet."

damn now i wanna read the wrinkle in time again....

[wizard nelson]

oh... but if your saying merlin manipulated time and space to create a pocket dimension that exists in 5 times and none, then i agree with that. i wag merlin exists on DR outside of space and time(*shrug* similar has been done by other merlin characters) and this is how he kinda,sorta, didn't die but isn't around anymore.
edit- in science 5 dimensions are used to create the theoretical 'bottomless bags' coincidence merlin created DR in 5 dimensions?

[Griffyn612]

oh... but if your saying merlin manipulated time and space to create a pocket dimension that exists in 5 times and none, then i agree with that. i wag merlin exists on DR outside of space and time(*shrug* similar has been done by other merlin characters) and this is how he kinda,sorta, didn't die but isn't around anymore.

That's kind of what I'm saying.  The loop image above isn't showing where time is overlapping to coexist everywhere; it's like the two points on the string (or in Merlin's case, 5 points) are parallel to each other.  Then, Merlin & Co. create a 'pocket dimension', as you call it, a physical area confined to DR that 'bridges' the 5 times into 1 at the single point (DR).  That's the needle piercing through the strands at one point, creating a single link through them all, but allowing each strand to still exist individually. 

He's not changing time, he's doing something that was always done because someone outside linear time set it up. 

[wizard nelson]

ummm you ever read the merlin conspiracy? you might like it. your island sounds like romanov's island. different points in time and space all connected by the nexus that is his actual portion of land existing in its own timeframe.

[Griffyn612]

ummm you ever read the merlin conspiracy? you might like it. your island sounds like romanov's island. different points in time and space all connected by the nexus that is his actual portion of land existing in its own timeframe.

Nope, never read it.  I'll give it a try.  I don't have anything else to read right now, so I'm spending too many hours on this site talking about Dresden.   

[robertltux]

these timey whimy whiblley wobbley posts are fun.


I would like to see a DR Who/ Dresden crossover story. Would Gallefrian tech survive being close to HBCD?? Is the ZaGuard big enough to move the TARDIS??

Is The Well basically a DV "Tardis" that can't move??

[Ms Duck]

The whole point of the loop/bridge time-travel concept proposed here is that there wouldn't be a time where it didn't happen. 

From Uriel's perspective, time is not linear.  Stand back far enough, and it's apparently wibbly wobbly.  By creating a permanent temporal bridge, those 5 times are linked to occur at the same time the first time.  There was no time he didn't make the prison.

Picture a piece of string.  It's linear, as mortals see time.  Now imagine that Merlin got help creating a loop, where two parts of the string overlap, like this:


Where the string overlaps itself is two separate points of time.  Now imagine a pin getting pushed through the string, bonding the two points together.  That makes them permanently bound together.  Only instead of just one loop for two points, there are 4 loops for 5 points of time.

The reason Ms Duck has an issue with it is because messing with time like that would seem to be a very high-level trick.  She thinks that it would take a WG-level talent to do it.

But Merlin clearly did it, presumably with help.  We can either assume that TWG helped, but if so, why did TWG both involving a mortal at all?  Or we can assume that one or multiple lower-tier powers (Mab, Odin, Uriel) worked together to do it. 

We know that the Ladies working together were able to channel their attack across multiple times.  So the idea that there are time-travel capabilities among the powers isn't outrageous.  By nature, Mab should be more powerful than Maeve in that aspect.

Again, the theory breaks down at why do it.  There was clearly a major, reality-level need for Merlin to create the DR prison.  If it's as difficult as Duck suspects, then it would require a reality-level need for Harry to go back.  And I can't think of one.

But if it doesn't take as much power to create a single bridge, and there were a really-really-important-reason for him to go back, then Mab and others might work together to get it done.  I still don't know why, though.

couple of issues: you are assuming maeve and lilly created the time warp, and the weapons. I find that assumption dubious; Maeve was the bait, not the mastermind. She was standing at ground zero for crying out loud.

HHWx , who is in Mab's power level is to my mind a far more likely suspect.

second, your concept of time travel is more of the liberal rts type then the hard sci fi type; which works well for some worlds but not as well for Jim's. Conservation of energy exists; its not just the change you have to account for, its the sending the person back to make the change in the first place.

What Odin is saying the farther you send someone back, the more power it takes, and he's also saying its so dang expensive that even people like Mab don't do it- that's why she uses precog instead, where she looks into possible futures and makes changes in the now to make those futures more likely.

which is why Rashid and Mab are far more likely suspects; both can see the possible future, and both had access to the now that was required.

 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

although its virtually against my nature, i feel i must give you a virtual hug.... *hugs*

Thank you kindly. *hug*

(I also like Harry going back because he finds out he went back because it's fun ammo for the free will argument.)