Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)

[Ms Duck]

Please note, DR told Bob very diluted information, who then told Harry very diluted information, who then told US very diluted information.

and there is no reason to assume DR told anything close to the whole truth. And plenty to assume much of the island is on a need to know basis.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

If you say, well, Future Harry always was going to fix LC, so he is not changing the past, he is making it happen the way it was always supposed to, then there would be no such thing as changing the past because every action Future Person takes is always the action they would have taken and the past is never altered [/u]. Yet we know from Odin’s speech that such a thing is possible, though difficult.

Why would we assume that closed time-travel loops and altering the past can't both happen in the same universe ?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

sorry griff, I doubt Odin's that strong. we are talking white god level, there.

I remain to be convinced that what's needed here is brute strength rather than moderate strength plus significant skill and smarts.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The time at which the attack commenced was the night of December 31st.  From that place and time, Maeve and Lily created a time-distortion field.  Their attack then branched out through time, attacking from multiple times.  That's how Bob describes the attack early in CD.  In doing so, it impacted the wards at DR, which then caused the ripples which everyone sensed.

Are we absolutely sure that by the end of CD every level of that attack on Demonreach has been countered ? That there aren't other components further in the past or future ?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

- a prisons wall have to be strong enough to hold the prisoners. Some of them are likely Titans, or worse.

The metaphor to come to mind here is Marcone's pit at the end of FM.  Seems to me that the wall of that, being soft mud with no traction, would stop a loup-garou climibing out as easily as it stops Harry.  Brute strength is again not the only way.

- the prison all has to be strong enough to contain their natures. If having someone of titan class (mother winter) on earth is enough to accidentally flatten the planet, how strong does a shield to contain that have to be?

We see in TC that the skinwalker has a minor reality-warping effect; it is how Harry realises there's something to look at with his Sight, right at the beginning. We see DR containing that easily.

I don't suspect strong shields.  I suspect constrant draining, into leylines, and possibly also into the NN.

- Merlin cast the spell that made the outer ward. I doubt he built the whole thing; for one point , DR itself is much older then the ward is.

An asserion which seems premature when we only have a lower bound for how far Merlin traveled through time.

[Griffyn612]

Please note, DR told Bob very diluted information, who then told Harry very diluted information, who then told US very diluted information.

and there is no reason to assume DR told anything close to the whole truth. And plenty to assume much of the island is on a need to know basis.

So no explanation as to how Merlin got TWG level help to create the prison?  Or are you now thinking Merlin didn't create it at all, since we can't trust anything that's been said?

I remain to be convinced that what's needed here is brute strength rather than moderate strength plus significant skill and smarts.

I think what you and TCF are both elluding to is the fact that Harry and Bob were both overwealmed at the wards and enchantments they saw, but with the explanation of time adding to them, they're something reasonably possible.  Still out of Harry's skill-range, but not far out of his power range.

The spells powering the actual construction of it hadn’t been, alone, too much stronger than some of the work I had done— but when they’d been interconnected with their counterparts across time, they’d fed upon one another, created a perfect resonance of energy that had become something infinitely greater than the sum of its parts.

Are we absolutely sure that by the end of CD every level of that attack on Demonreach has been countered ? That there aren't other components further in the past or future ?

By Odin's description, the echoes of the attack could only happen in a short time around the attack itself.  And there was only evidence of the one attack occurring, which then crossed multiple times.  If the attack were still happening across time, then the echoes would be felt.  But if the attack is only happening at one time, no echoes would be felt, but apparently wouldn't be enough to actually damage the wards.

[TheCuriousFan]

I think what you and TCF are both elluding to is the fact that Harry and Bob were both overwealmed at the wards and enchantments they saw, but with the explanation of time adding to them, they're something reasonably possible.  Still out of Harry's skill-range, but not far out of his power range.

Yes, thank you for providing the quote.

[Cenphx]

@Gryffin612 -- ahh, I had completely forgotten Bob's depcition of that spell interacting with DR's wards. You're right. Thanks for including the quotes.                                                               @ neurovore -- re closed time travel loops and altering the past. I've never considered in much detail the paradoxes of time travel or how to resolve them, so im just muddling through here. In fact, I had to check whether closed time travel loop was the same as what I said about the idea you dont actually alter the past because whatever you do in the past is what you always did so nothing changes. Im not saying I subscribe to that theory, but isnt it by definiton mutually exclusive of being able to alter the past?

[Ms Duck]

The metaphor to come to mind here is Marcone's pit at the end of FM.  Seems to me that the wall of that, being soft mud with no traction, would stop a loup-garou climibing out as easily as it stops Harry.  Brute strength is again not the only way.

We see in TC that the skinwalker has a minor reality-warping effect; it is how Harry realises there's something to look at with his Sight, right at the beginning. We see DR containing that easily.

I don't suspect strong shields.  I suspect constrant draining, into leylines, and possibly also into the NN.

An asserion which seems premature when we only have a lower bound for how far Merlin traveled through time.

the problem is when you realize how strong the reality warping of even a single titan would be; the effect Is so much greater then a shaggy its not even funny. Mab, just by herself, caused near global climate change.

A Titan? eurk.

I dont see how you can drain that into the environment in any way worth while there. Be like trying to channel a flood with a silly straw

as to the WG, im saying things like him may have been involved. We know, for example, that its wasn't merlin who beat the titans and imprisoned them, it was the Greek gods.

seems a lot more likely Merlin was working for someone , to me

there is a major logic problem in saying 'Harry can time travel, because Merlin can do it.' .. kind of like saying 'the space shuttle can destroy planets, because the death star can'.. yea, sure, they are both space ships but we have a small problem of scale here...

[Griffyn612]

@Gryffin612 -- ahh, I had completely forgotten Bob's depcition of that spell interacting with DR's wards. You're right. Thanks for including the quotes.                                                               @ neurovore -- re closed time travel loops and altering the past. I've never considered in much detail the paradoxes of time travel or how to resolve them, so im just muddling through here. In fact, I had to check whether closed time travel loop was the same as what I said about the idea you dont actually alter the past because whatever you do in the past is what you always did so nothing changes. Im not saying I subscribe to that theory, but isnt it by definiton mutually exclusive of being able to alter the past?

Personally I hate time travel plots, and honestly don't even truly believe that TTH as I've described it will happen.

BUT, saying it does, the issue always seems to be, what happened first?  If Harry had to travel back to fix LC, then who fixed it the first time?  Why didn't they fix it the second time?  Did Harry do something that screwed up the other person's actions, and he had to fulfill it himself?  Or did it not get fixed the first time?  Thus, Harry would have died, so how did the reality where Harry didn't die come about?

The only happy answer I can see is the temporal bridge theory, where the two times are linked together at a place for a duration (time).  But the issue with that theory is this: How does Harry leave the bridged location, and if he does, what determines which time he enters?

Let's say that the physical location of the bridge is on DR.  A bridge would be built at that location, making both times occur at once at that location.  It'd be the same thing Merlin did at the same location. 

But then if Harry walks out of the temporal bridge area, what determines the outside time he walks in to?  It would have to be the PG time or the future time.  Would there be refractal portals that he could choose from?  Presumably there would also be a time-limit that the bridge could last.  That would be a good plot point, in that if Harry misses it, he's stuck reliving the past from the shadows, in fear of changing anything and destroying reality.

That's why time travel is so difficult.  I haven't figured it out yet myself, or I would already be a google/apple millionaire.

the problem is when you realize how strong the reality warping of even a single titan would be; the effect Is so much greater then a shaggy its not even funny. Mab, just by herself, caused near global climate change.

A Titan? eurk.

I dont see how you can drain that into the environment in any way worth while there. Be like trying to channel a flood with a silly straw

as to the WG, im saying things like him may have been involved. We know, for example, that its wasn't merlin who beat the titans and imprisoned them, it was the Greek gods.

seems a lot more likely Merlin was working for someone , to me

there is a major logic problem in saying 'Harry can time travel, because Merlin can do it.' .. kind of like saying 'the space shuttle can destroy planets, because the death star can'.. yea, sure, they are both space ships but we have a small problem of scale here...

I honestly don't see what would prevent Harry from doing what Merlin did, especially if Merlin had outside help.  Whether it requires a Fae Queen, a Norse god, or a meddlesome Archangel, Harry could get the help needed if it was truly needed. 

And if Harry did it, he would be working for someone.  He wouldn't do it himself; I've never thought that would be the case.  At times I've theorized Mab or the Gatekeeper helping him find a way to do it.  Now that we know Merlin was able to do it once for 5 times, imagining Harry doing it once with 2 times isn't so outrageous to me. 

The temporal bridge theory allows for a possible means, but not a motive.  I'm still lost as to why Harry would need to go back.  Some speculate to use LilC, but I can't see where it would be easier for gods and queens to work together to send him back, rather than simply help him rebuild a new LilC.  It has to be something specific to that time-frame.  I've speculated that it was to find out who attacked AT or such, but that's not enough.

[wizard nelson]

i will remind you of the Novikov self-consistency principle of time travel. NOTHING is proven or disproven till its explained in a book.

[wyltok]

i will remind you of the Novikov self-consistency principle of time travel. NOTHING is proven or disproven till its explained in a book.

I'm afraid that the Novikov self-consistency principle has been proven in the book to not apply to prophecy / foresight. Examples include:

- The prophecy in Death Masks only included two alternatives: Harry dies, or the Knights all die. Neither of these happens.

- Abby replied to a question before he got a chance to make it, and her reply stopped him from making it. Meaning, the timeline where he asked the question never happened in the first place.

- The Gatekeeper used some sort of ability to determine Harry's chances near the end of Turn Coat. This ability gave two different results. If the ability is foresight / time-based (as the dialogue in that scene implies) then it saw two different futures.

Now, what the Novikov self-consistency conjecture states is that only close time loops can happen. But proving that this conjecture is false does not automatically mean that close time loops can't happen, only that they aren't the only alternative.

It's still possible that the Little Chicago situation is a closed time loop. As an example, I'm fairly certain that what Merlin did when he created the Well qualifies as a closed time loop.

[wizard nelson]

I'm afraid that the Novikov self-consistency principle has been proven in the book to not apply to prophecy / foresight. Examples include:

and at what point did i mention forsight? as you pointed out merlin already created a time loop ergo in the DV the principle is viable.

[wyltok]

and at what point did i mention forsight? as you pointed out merlin already created a time loop ergo in the DV the principle is viable.

Whoops, you're right. I combined what you said in two separate topics. My most heartfelt apologies. Still, how can you say the self-consistency conjecture applies (which states that only time travel that does not change the past is possible) when Odin states that changing the past is possible, but just takes considerable more effort (and luck) than changing the future? The two principles seem to be mutually exclusive...

[robertltux]

So no explanation as to how Merlin got TWG level help to create the prison?  Or are you now thinking Merlin didn't create it at all, since we can't trust anything that's been said?

Im thinking its like a Thermite reaction. all you need to kick off a FO/AL reaction is a sparkler (which can be ignited by a match) but you could end up with a truck being turned into a blob of metal.