Author Topic: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)  (Read 52380 times)

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2013, 01:28:40 AM »
But let’s talk about it for a second. You are saying the energy buildup which was going to cause the explosion Molly was talking to Harry when he first gets to Chicago is NOT due to someone futzing with time but is a result of the spell Maeve and Lily were performing, if I understand you correctly. But how is it that the energy buildup had already started before Harry even met with Molly? Remember Molly had already been talking to Lea about it, so not necessarily days or anything, but people were noticing the energy backlash definitely some time before that night at Demonreach. I noticed that you said their (Maeve/Lily’s) attack was happening simultaneously with other times. I could see that. But it couldn’t have been happening as early as when Molly noticed the energy building up, because didn’t Harry met with both Maeve and Lilly at the Botanical Gardens after that?

The time at which the attack commenced was the night of December 31st.  From that place and time, Maeve and Lily created a time-distortion field.  Their attack then branched out through time, attacking from multiple times.  That's how Bob describes the attack early in CD.  In doing so, it impacted the wards at DR, which then caused the ripples which everyone sensed.

Hmm...I guess when I was imagining Merlin creating DR, I picture it as there was one Merlin existing in one place which happened to be a joining of 5 different times, like he had folded time like a ribbon and the spot where the folds were held together was were he was standing when he worked the magic to create Demonreach. So it was one Merlin at five different points in time, but at the same time.

But that doesn't work for the Little Chicago example, because even if you folded time to make the future and the time of Proven Guilty touch, there would be 2 Harrys in existence at the time LC was fixed,  the one who knows it was being fixed and our Harry who had no idea.

I agree with your Merlin/ribbon analogy.  Merlin folded 5 times together, so that there was one place experiencing all 5 times at once.  There was one Merlin completing the work at DR.  That doesn't mean that there wasn't another Merlin at any of those times.

If Harry folds time (with Odin's help) so that the events of PG are bridged to another time, then there's a chance Harry can exist as two people in the same place in the same time(s).  And because the times were linked with a temporal bridge, there wasn't a time when they weren't. 

It's beyond Harry's ability, and may even be beyond what Merlin did.  We don't know if his five times were all present and future, or if some were past as well.  But if there's a way to link a place between two times, then it could explain how Harry could exist as two different people the one and only time that time occurs.

sorry griff, I doubt Odin's that strong. we are talking white god level, there. ;)

a Titan could take out Odin or Mab by sneezing hard. Odin is in the category of 'can walk around fine on earth without causing so much as a temperature change' -- he nowhere near that level.

So by your estimate, Merlin was TWG?  How did he do it? 

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2013, 01:32:07 AM »
Problem

Merlin's power and skill >>>>>> Harry's

to the point im convinced Merlin was working for a cosmic level power when he did that; no mortal is capable of building a prison that can hold a titan.

your theory demands Harry gains godlike power. It always had. Im not ready to buy that yet.

Didn't Harry point out that the power requirements to make Demonreach aren't that much more than what he can do?
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Offline Ben de Wal

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2013, 01:38:22 AM »
Harry couldn't power up the first layer of wards on one stone which had  many layers of wards  on his best day according to bob

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 01:40:46 AM »
Harry couldn't power up the first layer of wards on one stone which had  many layers of wards  on his best day according to bob

I was talking about when Demonreach explained through Bob how the island was made. I'm not at home so I can't get the exact quote.
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Offline rekshek

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 01:43:38 AM »
I was talking about when Demonreach explained through Bob how the island was made. I'm not at home so I can't get the exact quote.

He said the power he could match, but the complexity of the system was beyond even Bob.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 01:47:39 AM »
I was talking about when Demonreach explained through Bob how the island was made. I'm not at home so I can't get the exact quote.
I'm guessing that these are the quotes in question.



Quote from: Cold Days Chapter 15
"They're powerful," he said.  "I can tell you that much.  But they're also complex.  I mean, like, Molly on her best day could not come close to weaving together something this crazy.  You on your best day could not sling around enough power to juice up one of the smallest stones.  And that's just the first layer.  I think there are more.  Maybe a lot more.  Uh, like hundreds."

Quote from: Cold Days Chapter 17
"These," Bob said, "represent the original enchantments on the island.  This is vastly simplified, of course, but the basic star-and-circle architecture is the same as the work you do, Harry."
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 01:47:53 AM »
He said the power he could match, but the complexity of the system was beyond even Bob.

I know that, I was arguing with Ms Duck's claim that Demonreach would require godlike amounts of power to make. The skill required is completely beyond Harry for the foreseeable future though.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 01:48:55 AM »
I'm guessing that these are the quotes in question.

No, I was talking about the ones from the conversation with Demonreach down in the Well. Not Harry and Bob's first impressions. Still, thank you for trying.
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 01:49:09 AM »
its not just the prison you've got to consider:

- a prisons wall have to be strong enough to hold the prisoners. Some of them are likely Titans, or worse.

- the prison all has to be strong enough to contain their natures. If having someone of titan class (mother winter) on earth is enough to accidentally flatten the planet, how strong does a shield to contain that have to be?

 - Merlin cast the spell that made the outer ward. I doubt he built the whole thing; for one point , DR itself is much older then the ward is.
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Offline Ben de Wal

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 01:50:24 AM »
iirc it said something about the spells feed and growing strong  of each other

Offline Cenphx

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 01:50:47 AM »
The time at which the attack commenced was the night of December 31st.  From that place and time, Maeve and Lily created a time-distortion field.  Their attack then branched out through time, attacking from multiple times.  That's how Bob describes the attack early in CD.  In doing so, it impacted the wards at DR, which then caused the ripples which everyone sensed.

Ok, I think I'm pretty much with you. But if Maeve/Lily's time-dilation spell, which only slowed time down for a few seconds or a few minutes or distorted it right where they were casting, created enough feedback to echo for at least a day before the event in question, I still find it hard to believe that Merlin or Harry folding time wouldn't create any temporal disturbance at all.

And I don't think the echoes from what Maeve and Lily were doing had anything to do with Demonreach's wards, mainly because Odin's description of the temporal echoes didn't specify that it would only occur at special places or special circumstances; the echoes seemed pretty universal.


Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 01:52:18 AM »
This ridiculous level of power that the upper tier supernatural creatures possess raises an interesting question.

If the various upper tier supernatural creatures have to spend large amounts on Earth and throw down with various other similarly strong entities, what effects will it have on reality and Earth? That many creatures capable of rewriting the laws of reality throwing down cannot be good for it.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2013, 02:06:56 AM »
Ok, I think I'm pretty much with you. But if Maeve/Lily's time-dilation spell, which only slowed time down for a few seconds or a few minutes or distorted it right where they were casting, created enough feedback to echo for at least a day before the event in question, I still find it hard to believe that Merlin or Harry folding time wouldn't create any temporal disturbance at all.

And I don't think the echoes from what Maeve and Lily were doing had anything to do with Demonreach's wards, mainly because Odin's description of the temporal echoes didn't specify that it would only occur at special places or special circumstances; the echoes seemed pretty universal.

The time-dilation itself is used to attack the island at multiple times.  In doing so, it sets off wards that Merlin laid across space-time.  The time-dilation doesn't cause the echoes; the energy shot through the time-dilation causes the echos.  If Harry/Merlin/Odin/Anyone folds time, it doesn't create energy like the attack.

You're too hung up on Odin's description.  Look at what Bob says, based on what DR tells him.
Statement:  “Someone hits the island with energy, Harry. But they’ve figured out how Merlin put this place together. They aren’t attacking it in three dimensions. They’re attacking in four. They’re sending power through time as well as through space.”
Analysis:  Maeve and Lily hit the island with energy.  They hit it in multiple times using the time distortion field.

Statement: “What the island is experiencing now is the echo of the moment that burst of energy strikes it,” Bob said. “Only instead of the echo happening after, it’s happening first.”
Analysis:  The attack, which has not started at that time, is already impacting the wards at that time, due to the time-dilation.

Statement:  Then I saw the dissonance appear. Bob had chosen to show it as a sullen red light that began to pulse lightly at the westernmost edges of the great design. It began as something faint, but then, like an oncoming headache, started to throb into something larger and more noticeable. Where scarlet and blue light touched, there were ugly flares of energy— flares that I had been sensing ever since I’d gotten to the island. Before long, that scarlet pulse had spread to half the island, and then, abruptly, the screen went white.
Analysis:  The dissonance is the energy coming from the attack.  It hits the wards across time, causing the scarlet pulses in the example, which Harry confirms are the same flares he's been sensing, and likely the others have as well.

its not just the prison you've got to consider:

- a prisons wall have to be strong enough to hold the prisoners. Some of them are likely Titans, or worse.

- the prison all has to be strong enough to contain their natures. If having someone of titan class (mother winter) on earth is enough to accidentally flatten the planet, how strong does a shield to contain that have to be?

 - Merlin cast the spell that made the outer ward. I doubt he built the whole thing; for one point , DR itself is much older then the ward is.

DR is the genus loci for the island.  But Bob clearly states in CD, based on the info DR gives him, that Merlin created the prison.
 - “Merlin didn’t build the prison five times,” Bob said. “He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time.”

This ridiculous level of power that the upper tier supernatural creatures possess raises an interesting question.

If the various upper tier supernatural creatures have to spend large amounts on Earth and throw down with various other similarly strong entities, what effects will it have on reality and Earth? That many creatures capable of rewriting the laws of reality throwing down cannot be good for it.

Odin said it best.
 - “It is the only way,” Vadderung said. “If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well  .  .  .”
   “Seems like it would be bad,” I said.
   “Not bad,” Vadderung said. “The end.”

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2013, 02:11:32 AM »
Odin said it best.
 - “It is the only way,” Vadderung said. “If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well  .  .  .”
   “Seems like it would be bad,” I said.
   “Not bad,” Vadderung said. “The end.”

I was thinking more about the BAT and the Outsiders attacking Earth when I made that statement, but I suppose those guys getting out (or being pointed at the Outsiders) would cause major problems for reality like Odin said.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2013, 02:15:16 AM »
I was thinking more about the BAT and the Outsiders attacking Earth when I made that statement, but I suppose those guys getting out (or being pointed at the Outsiders) would cause major problems for reality like Odin said.

If there's a full prison break, I don't know that reality could withstand it, based on what's been said by JB about power levels and walking in reality.  The BAT may be the Gates falling, or a couple of inmates breaking free to set off something.  But a full prison break is probably game over, period.

P.S.  Since there's no way of knowing when the earliest time was that Merlin created the prison, then we can't be sure Merlin didn't actually create DR.  If he traveled back in time far enough, then DR might not have manifested as a genus loci prior to the prison's creation.  It might have been Merlin's actions that helped bring about the DR manifestation of a genus loci. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 02:18:11 AM by Griffyn612 »