The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]

[Theonlyspiral]

Molly? Is that you?

[wyltok]

hows this forsight? because the WG is omnipotent and knows harry's dumb ass has to save the world one day so he pulls fat from fryer? WG intervenes all the time even to people who don't actually believe like sanya.

[...]

she doesn't need it, she has proven capable of following the actions of WG archangels in Smf and GS.  the WG and mab have had interest in positive outcomes in multiple books. and either by incidence or design do work along side each other. so

So out of curiosity, if Mab is willing to rely on the WG's team stopping Dresden from using LC while it's broken, why isn't she relying on them also fixing it for her when she needs it fixed? It's one thing for Mab to rely on Uriel doing his job (intervening when the Big L does something on Earth), it's quite another for her to continuously rely on angelic intervention when she finds it convenient, particularly since she knows she can't control how they will intervene (they could have just as easily sent Mister to run around the model messing everything up and forcing Harry to start from scratch).

Also, keep in mind, the Fae cannot accept favors or gifts without providing something in return. If she's relying on the WG's help on this, that means she owes him. So this is both having faith, and ending up owing favors... it just strikes me as un-Mab-like, you know?

that doesn't do it for me. winters favor? so? nothing about scrying tool needing fixing?

The thought process is fairly straight-forward, in my opinion:

"Gee, I wonder why I'm getting this prophecy about Dresden's scrying tool and a deadline? It must be important, I should probably check it out before that date."
[...]
"Well, here I am, in Dresden's lab and here's his scrying tool... well, what do you know, there's a bug in one of the power couplings. Better fix that before he uses it, or his head will explode."

and wouldn't he need a specific time of day? its not like night explains when harry used it. to clarify he would have had to tail harrys every move directly, mab has servants, and can blink. 

We already know that Rashid does that for important situations. He spent all of Summer Knight following Dresden around to make sure he was on hand to give him the tools he would need to save Lily. I'm just suggesting he did the same thing here, but away from Harry's sight.

[Ms Duck]

the biggest problem with the gatekeeper fixed LC, for me, is this WOJ:

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old. 

It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?

[Griffyn612]

the biggest problem with the gatekeeper fixed LC, for me, is this WOJ:

It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?

OR, JB didn't mention TTH because it's going to be a surprise later.  He's not going to say "Ask yourself why Mab had Time-Travellin' Harry bring Molly in.".  And why would she chose Molly at that point?  Not because Harry and Molly were already so close.  But maybe because TTH demanded it, so Mab took an interest in her.

ya see ?   

[Ms Duck]

OR, JB didn't mention TTH because it's going to be a surprise later.  He's not going to say "Ask yourself why Mab had Time-Travellin' Harry bring Molly in.".  And why would she chose Molly at that point?  Not because Harry and Molly were already so close.  But maybe because TTH demanded it, so Mab took an interest in her.

ya see ?   

that's.. unique. It gets a medal for the virtue of having never been tried before.

[wizard nelson]

So out of curiosity, if Mab is willing to rely on the WG's team stopping Dresden from using LC while it's broken,
Also, keep in mind, the Fae cannot accept favors or gifts without providing something in return.

who says she relies on it? she takes advantage of it. totally different. the WG isn't acting on her behalf or for her benifit. that they have similar interests is a coincidence she can use to her advantage.

(they could have just as easily sent Mister to run around the model messing everything up and forcing Harry to start from scratch).

but then he can't use it later and LC doesn't become a chekov's gun for us to debate endlessly about before its revealed to be a red herring that kept us from seeing what jim is really setting up which is harry getting a delorian suped up with a flux capacitor. jk...
the rest i don't even feel the need to reply to... your theory stands  on a gimpy, wobbly leg during an earthquake, no reason to push you if your already falling

[wyltok]

the biggest problem with the gatekeeper fixed LC, for me, is this WOJ:

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in.  What chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it?  Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs.  If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old.

It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?

Actually, I've been wondering about that WoJ since Cold Days came out myself. I was hoping to get your feeling at some point on whether the Summer Fire attack on the Winter Wellspring was part of Mab's plan or Nemesis'.

As for the rest, have you considered that even if Molly's kidnapping was part of Mab's plan, Harry's rescue attempt maybe wasn't? I mean, when you think about it, I could see many more advantages for Mab in keeping Molly rather than letting her go.
- It would be easy to threaten her with revealing her crimes against the Law to the Council. She'd be the equivalent of Elaine, owing favors to Winter, being shaped by them, and being prepared for her future role as Lady.
- It would be a heck of a thing to hold over Harry's head. He likely would have been more than willing to take on the Winter Knight position much earlier in order to get Molly back from Mab.

In your view, what advantage does Mab get from allowing Molly to be rescued? I can only think of three, and to be honest, they all seem much weaker reasons to let her go than the two alternatives for keeping her I listed above.
1. Mab would not want to make enemies with the WG's forces. Considering that the first time we meet Lea, she was part of a scheme to unmake the strongest Sword of the Cross, that doesn't really sound like Winter to me.
2. Mab figured having an apprentice would make Harry level up faster, for lack of a better term. This is something Harry himself mentions in White Night, so it's possible.
3. Keeping Molly with Harry instead of with Winter kept her out of Maeve and Nemesis' crosshairs. I think if Mab had a reason for wanting to Molly rescued, it would have to be this one.

Is there something I'm missing?

[wyltok]

who says she relies on it? she takes advantage of it. totally different. the WG isn't acting on her behalf or for her benifit. that they have similar interests is a coincidence she can use to her advantage.

You know, that's not really consistent with the way the White God is portrayed in the series. Remember, we're talking about the guys who allowed a history of abuse to continue in a family for 300 years. We're talking about the guys behind the 10 plagues of Egypt. We're talking about the guys who chose to allow Ivy to be tortured instead of rescuing her during the Aquarium fight so they could give Harry soulfire instead.

These are not not nice people, and they are willing to go to rather extreme lengths to fulfill their mission. Taking advantage of similar interests will leave you stuck on an island for 6 months keeping a soul-less body alive while Uriel borrows the soul without permission, subjects it to enough danger that it is almost permanently destroyed, and after all that, Uriel still tries to give the soul a different job offer and makes it sound like not taking the offer will send it straight to Hell.

Yeah, real smart to take advantage of the White God's interest in Harry without putting a deal in place first [/sarcasm]

the rest i don't even feel the need to reply to... your theory stands  on a gimpy, wobbly leg during an earthquake, no reason to push you if your already falling

If you honestly believe that my suggesting that the Gatekeeper decided to act in Proven Guilty in a way that's consistent with the way he's acted in Summer Knight, Turn Coat, and Cold Days, is the equivalent of a "theory standing on a gimpy, wobbly leg", then I guess we can just agree to disagree. Thank you for bringing up the point about the content of the message from the future. I think that's the first time that idea's been brought up here.

[Ms Duck]

It flat outright says Mab had a plan for bringing Moly in, that she did it, and she planned it.

at this point the only reason I can think of for having the gatekeeper fix LC was because Mab told him too.. he was acting as her agent.

ya see ?


Actually, I've been wondering about that WoJ since Cold Days came out myself. I was hoping to get your feeling at some point on whether the Summer Fire attack on the Winter Wellspring was part of Mab's plan or Nemesis'.

As for the rest, have you considered that even if Molly's kidnapping was part of Mab's plan, Harry's rescue attempt maybe wasn't? I mean, when you think about it, I could see many more advantages for Mab in keeping Molly rather than letting her go.
- It would be easy to threaten her with revealing her crimes against the Law to the Council. She'd be the equivalent of Elaine, owing favors to Winter, being shaped by them, and being prepared for her future role as Lady.
- It would be a heck of a thing to hold over Harry's head. He likely would have been more than willing to take on the Winter Knight position much earlier in order to get Molly back from Mab.

In your view, what advantage does Mab get from allowing Molly to be rescued? I can only think of three, and to be honest, they all seem much weaker reasons to let her go than the two alternatives for keeping her I listed above.
1. Mab would not want to make enemies with the WG's forces. Considering that the first time we meet Lea, she was part of a scheme to unmake the strongest Sword of the Cross, that doesn't really sound like Winter to me.
2. Mab figured having an apprentice would make Harry level up faster, for lack of a better term. This is something Harry himself mentions in White Night, so it's possible.
3. Keeping Molly with Harry instead of with Winter kept her out of Maeve and Nemesis' crosshairs. I think if Mab had a reason for wanting to Molly rescued, it would have to be this one.

Is there something I'm missing?

well .. what I believe..is that Mab kidnapped Moly because she has a plan for molly, and she needed to get molly to AT in such a way that nemesis would not realize how important molly was.

of course, im the nut who think Mab hid LC from Harry in TC, to force him to go to demon reach, because she had plan later that required using demon reach and harry as part of a trap for her enemies.

now if only she could lure them into direct action.. by say letting her knight be killed...

rather then re write the whole thing out, have a link:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html

[wyltok]

well .. what I believe..is that Mab kidnapped Moly because she has a plan for molly, and she needed to get molly to AT in such a way that nemesis would not realize how important molly was.

of course, im the nut who think Mab hid LC from Harry in TC, to force him to go to demon reach, because she had plan later that required using demon reach and harry as part of a trap for her enemies.

now if only she could lure them into direct action.. by say letting her knight be killed...

rather then re write the whole thing out, have a link:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.0.html

Just wanted to confirm which parts of that you still subscribe to after our discussion in this topic. As I previously mentioned, I'm still not convinced Mab has access to foresight. You mentioned in this topic that you don't think Mab can see how her actions will change the future away from what she saw, to which I pointed out that well, other beings who can see the future have been shown being able to tell exactly how their words change the future (Angels and Fallen) or have WoJ confirming that they have that skill (quoting: "Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you're doing right now a week and a half ago.").

Do you still believe Mab has personal access to future knowledge, and if so, what evidence makes you think so? Do you still think it works differently from Angels and Odin? And if she does, why wasn't she using it prior to the big final fight in Cold Days? She kinda didn't see much coming that day.

If she can't see the future... can the rest of that topic stand without her having foresight?

Also, I don't think that topic answers my question about who's plan the Summer Fire attack on Winter's Wellspring was. I personally believe that the attack resulted in the Gate being unguarded for some time as every member of Winter rushed to AT, so it just doesn't make sense as something for Mab to have actually intended, you know? What are your thoughts on this?

(Actually, it does make sense to me, but I'd rather hear your thoughts first, rather than bias them with my own idea).

[wizard nelson]

You know, that's not really consistent with the way the White God is portrayed in the series. Remember, we're talking about the guys who allowed a history of abuse to continue in a family for 300 years. We're talking about the guys behind the 10 plagues of Egypt.

are we still talking DF here?

These are not not nice people, and they are willing to go to rather extreme lengths to fulfill their mission. Taking advantage of similar interests will leave you stuck on an island for 6 months keeping a soul-less body alive while Uriel borrows the soul without permission, subjects it to enough danger that it is almost permanently destroyed, and after all that, Uriel still tries to give the soul a different job offer and makes it sound like not taking the offer will send it straight to Hell.

yep, mabs agenda doesn't always coincide with the WG's. makes her pissy don't it?

[wizard nelson]

If you honestly believe that my suggesting that the Gatekeeper decided to act in Proven Guilty in a way that's consistent with the way he's acted in Summer Knight, Turn Coat, and Cold Days, is the equivalent of a "theory standing on a gimpy, wobbly leg", then I guess we can just agree to disagree.

i was using a humorous auphymism to point out your theory at times has no weight and relies on pure conjecture to make up for these fallicies. but put that way no, GK prefers to work without dirtying his hands or meddling in what aught not be meddled in(he's the uriel of the bunch, ebs the michael). SK was different, it was WC business. thanks.

[Ms Duck]

Just wanted to confirm which parts of that you still subscribe to after our discussion in this topic. As I previously mentioned, I'm still not convinced Mab has access to foresight. You mentioned in this topic that you don't think Mab can see how her actions will change the future away from what she saw, to which I pointed out that well, other beings who can see the future have been shown being able to tell exactly how their words change the future (Angels and Fallen) or have WoJ confirming that they have that skill (quoting: "Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you're doing right now a week and a half ago.").

Do you still believe Mab has personal access to future knowledge, and if so, what evidence makes you think so? Do you still think it works differently from Angels and Odin? And if she does, why wasn't she using it prior to the big final fight in Cold Days? She kinda didn't see much coming that day.

If she can't see the future... can the rest of that topic stand without her having foresight?

Also, I don't think that topic answers my question about who's plan the Summer Fire attack on Winter's Wellspring was. I personally believe that the attack resulted in the Gate being unguarded for some time as every member of Winter rushed to AT, so it just doesn't make sense as something for Mab to have actually intended, you know? What are your thoughts on this?

(Actually, it does make sense to me, but I'd rather hear your thoughts first, rather than bias them with my own idea).

I still believe Mab can see the future, and is very good at it. She's just not perfect though, because the Dresden universe is a non deterministic one- no one in that universe, even a cosmic level god, can see the future 100% IMO.

seeing the future, and interpreting it, are two different things. I don't know if you've ever read Thomas Covenant, but I know Jim has ( he's lamp shaded in the books) and a big part of it in that series (which has a lot to do with free will, much like this one) is there are two parts:

Seer, who has visions of the future

and Prophet, who can tell you what those visions  mean.

now all the rest is IMO:

Mab is a very good Seer- she can foresee very well often years in advance, but doesn't always understand why things will happen the way they do. And she knows she could be wrong.

and she play chess against someone with the exact same limitations. Currently Mab's up on position but down on points, losing Maeve hurt a lot.

some people wonder why N left Maeve so much of her own free will and let her direct some of the action, while he just took over cat sith. Its because N understood Mab loves Maeve, and as long as there was even the smallest chance that she could be saved, would be willing to risk her own life to try and do so. In some messed up way, its Mab's biggest weakness.. she can still love.

as to how Mab sees the future, I think she has several methods. But I believe a major one is that the mantle of the queens was once one thing, before it was split; first into three pieces and then into six when the courts split into summer/ winter.

Being a far more advanced and powerful version of the archive, all persons who wear it, in all times, are somewhat connected; to each according to their gifts, and from each according to their intellects. So much like in the ancient Celtic myths of old, Mab can remember not only what past wearers knew but also foresee what future members might know.

Its the Once and Future.. Queen.

 

So do I think Molly goes back in time and becomes Mab? nope, not anymore. I think Mab goes into the future and becomes Molly.

If Book 20 doesn't end with 'all hail queen Molly' ill eat my bill.

As Mab approaches the point of change, her future memories of Molly become more clear, and having fresh human emotions, more strong. Thus the 'mine, mine, mine' in Changes, and the whole speech at the end of CD about how Harry raised Molly. It may have been about her training, but what it was relay about was how much Molly/ Mab loved Harry, and how little he loved her, and how much it hurt them.

was it unfair? yes, certainly. but it was also very real.

probably the scariest things is, if I am right, Molly/ Mab is damn close to losing it.

The two of them need Harry right now, and since he has his head up his ass to the point where he can smell out his belly button, they aren't likely to get him.


Back OT, I doubt summer fire had anything to do with N and im sure it didn't leave the gates unguarded. The forces that were called back were Mab's border guards, and her reserve force, under the command of the Erlking. That's what, a 1/1000 th of her total force?

I joked in another thread that while we've met Odin and Herne, where are Cerne, Arawn, Lugus.. Jokes aside, Jim mentions there are lots of kings of winter, and I suspect some of them are in command of the gates.


as to the end of CD.. I think a lot of it came out 'within spec'. Mab didn't get exactly what she wanted ( Maeve restored) but she knew the odds on that were always damn long to begin with.

As to the comments of what she intended for Molly.. of course she didn't intend Molly to take Maeve's place. Molly is supposed to someday take hers. Sarrisa was meant to take over Lilly's.  The solution that came out was less then ideal, but its still workable.

on the other hand, she did lure her enemies to attack DR directly, which unknown to them had a fully functional and operational warden. (cue imperial music). that, with the wild hunt and two sidhe kings/ generals put the enemy right between the rock and the hard place.

it cost the enemy dearly too- as outisders must be summoned by mortals, there is a limit to how many they can field. 

kind of hard for Mab to:

- introduce Harry and DR in SmF
- Make her potential knight warden in TC (without N knowing)
- Broadcast his knight Dom in changes, very loudly
- arrange to get him killed , again very publically
- while sitting here
- and diverting the bullet from his head to his heart
- and catching him in the water
- getting rid of that silly death curse
- towing him to the isle, with which she had a deal
- let her enemies get their plans underway
- give them enough rope to hang themselves
- and turn their own trap against them

if she cant have fore seen at least some of that, right?

I mean, heck, Batman cant pull off plans like that, and he's one of the worst mary sue's in history.

 

ps- as to the WG, im not sure how much he's even involved. I do think Mab and Uriel have come to an 'understanding' and that Mab is not happy about it, one bit.




 
 

[wyltok]

are we still talking DF here?

The first bit I reference comes straight from the short story the Warrior. The second one comes from Bob, who told Harry that Uriel was the being in charge of the biblical plagues. Of course, Bob could have been wrong there. But at least 2 of the 3 examples provided are things that we saw happening in the books.

yep, mabs agenda doesn't always coincide with the WG's. makes her pissy don't it?

... If she's taking advantage of it knowing that their agendas don't really coincide, wouldn't that make her kinda stupid? That is, of course, unless she happens to have faith in the WG for some reason.

i was using a humorous auphymism to point out your theory at times has no weight and relies on pure conjecture to make up for these fallicies.

Since I'm always trying to improve myself, could you maybe provide some examples of the times where my theory has no weight and relies on conjecture? Maybe that way I can make a better defense of it.

but put that way no, GK prefers to work without dirtying his hands or meddling in what aught not be meddled in(he's the uriel of the bunch, ebs the michael). SK was different, it was WC business. thanks.

I find this statement utterly confusing. First of all, because Uriel is most definitely the kind to dirty his hands (unless you believe his "plausible deniability" thing in Ghost Story; you know, the one Harry didn't actually believe?). As examples of Uriel getting his hands dirty, there's the events of Small Favor, The Warrior, Ghost Story... every appearance of his, actually. His problems are two, actually: first, if he gets his hand too dirty, the world may end up exploding due to his sheer power level. Second, if he gets his hands too dirty, he may end up accidentally switching sides, and that would be bad.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the Gatekeeper acted the way he did in Summer Knight because it was Council business. To begin with, it's clear that he's the only member of the Senior Council who kept such a close eye on Harry, something not even Eb did. He also made it clear that he wasn't there observing because of the Council's Trial, but rather, because he knew how bad the situation in Faerie was, and that only Harry would be allowed to resolve things. And even then, he did everything he could to help Harry, providing him with the glamour cream, the bit of the Table, and a Way back to Chicago from the Mother's Cottage. Do you remember how Mab reacted when she realized who gave Harry this stuff? Sounds to me like even Mab recognizes Rashid as a meddlesome old man.

The events of Turn Coat  follow this same theme. Rashid does as much as he can, given his limitations and his very busy schedule in his extremely important job. He can't actually step foot on Demonreach, so it's not like he could have stuck around to help Harry with the fight, or volunteered to be part of the arresting party. And even then, in the middle of the fight, he sends a message that helps the good guys win, showing once again that he's keeping a close eye on the situation.

So the fact that he decided to involve himself in Proven Guilty and then proceeded to do nothing else doesn't really align with his other appearances at all. If he follows the same pattern as before, he must have been watching from afar, and ready to give Harry the tools he would need to succeed. That's what Rashid does.

[wizard nelson]

... If she's taking advantage of it knowing that their agendas don't really coincide, wouldn't that make her kinda stupid? That is, of course, unless she happens to have faith in the WG for some reason.

no.... why would it? its the same as ' my enemies enemy is my friend'. take advantage of what you can. heck if your enemy is doing something you can take advantage of, then do so. doesn't make them your friend or you stupid when they make a move you can't use against them.
an i don't really wanna debate with you anymore. every point i make gets something like that ^ in defence. it doesn't directly prove anything or support your theory with a logical conclusion. i'm... having trouble articulating what i mean... suffice it to say i made my points, you made your counter points. anyone reading can decide for themselves which argument carries more weight.