The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]

[Ms Duck]

not to retcon on things but it seems to me altering time requires the mortal touch of free will. just as in DB changing harry's fate was an act of free will in the face of predestination. so a god to facilitate the working and a mortal to carry out the actions. dude look at it this way. time manipulation is odin/kringles forte and harry owes him a favor. this sets up the presumed time travel jim says will probably happen. IF on the other hand the time thing refers to harry doing kringles job one snowy christmas eve and stretching time to visit every kid in the world, i'd be cool with that too 

ever read Hogfather ? youd like it.

[wizard nelson]

ever read Hogfather ? youd like it.

no but, i'll add it to the list of things to look for on my next library trip.

[wyltok]

not to derail, but both of those have been answered:

seeing in the future is not a static future, but a potential future; what she sees are what may happen. As to if she can, even Harry (in CD ) says she does, hes just not sure how far or how well.

Actually, what Harry said in Cold Days (after going through the star light circle) is that Mab can either see the future, or prepares for every eventuality. To put it simply, chess players can't see the future, they plan for it instead. Mab is a superb chess player. Look at the scenario at the end of Cold Days. She certainly didn't see Maeve's move coming, but she still had a backup in case anything happened to Sarissa. Similarly, she didn't see Harry's threat coming afterward.

Am I missing something that proves that she can see the future(s) instead of merely being a chess player?

second is answered in text as well, in DB: she says she is required to do what lea would have done, but she is not limited to it. For example, lea knows little about the word of Kemmler, but Mab does, and she told harry things Lea does not know because she decided to.

Actually, Dead Beat is the eminent example of Mab only going as far as Lea's knowledge instead of her own when it comes to fulfilling Harry's obligations. She even made a point of rubbing the rule in Harry's face and proceeded to offer him the Knighthood (again) as the price for the knowledge.

On the other hand (here I go shooting myself in the foot again), the conversation between Harry and Lea at his grave about Corpsetaker in GS is a good example of Lea being more than fair to Harry in answering his questions than what the deal strictly required. So it's a problem, but a workable problem, it seems.

Editted because I forgot to to reply to this part:

not to derail, but both of those have been answered:
I rate WAGs based on how many serious objections there are; right now there are none for Mab that I am aware of, Jim nailed down the last loose boards in CD.

Rashid has very few if any, the only big one being why?

I actually think the reply lies in what you wrote in one of your latter posts, specifically the part I bolded.

that's not the result. the result is :

Harry becomes warden of DR
Mab lays a trap for her enemies
kills many of their agents lose on earth
makes Molly new winter lady

you are mistaking the first two moves for the endgame. When Mab plays chess, she plays fricken chess. 

Mab outright tells us that she didn't plan for Molly to succeed Maeve as Winter Lady; she was just an understudy for whichever Lady spot became available first (in Mab's mind). I propose that the person who saw what was coming and planned for it was the Gatekeeper instead. That's why he told Harry that all would work out if he was just himself.

[Ms Duck]

point one: Dead Beat

after he refuses to take the WK job, Mab still helps him anyway. PG 180. Hard back

"I must do what I might to preserve your life. Know this, Mortal: should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the word.."

and she does one of her prophecy moments the next page away :

"one day you shall kneel at my feet."

these are kind of important, because Mab cannot lie. If she uses future tense like that, it means its something she has foreseen. and there a bunch of them.

(I have a standing WAG that after the series is over, a reader will be able to go thru the books and check off everything Mab said.. its very Jim, somehow.)

in CD, Harry doesn't question if Mab can see the future, but how far

"could Mab see that far ahead? or was this simply a case of superior preparedness in action? "

as to the things Mab said in CD at the end, she deliberately used squishy language. She has gotten very good at letting Harry assume what he wants to hear.

the one thing (and maybe its just egotism) that make me think Mab is the more likely is the logic chain. Using it, back in 2006, I predicted the end of Cold Days with some accuracy. I also predicted that Harry would die, that Mab would brign him back, that it would involve demon reach..

Now I got the details wrong. Time Travel wasn't directly involved, but indirectly thru Mab's precognition; and the attacking force was the outsiders, not the black court.

but it was close enough that even though I had left the board, people started emailing me to say things like 'OMG DUCK !!'

so it must have been somewhat on the ball... lol.

or just very very very lucky.

[wyltok]

As with last time, wizard nelson's posts are in the spoiler box. A quick summary:
1. Mab doesn't need foresight in order to stop Harry from blowing his head off. She can just keep him busy long enough that he won't use it before she gets a chance to fix it.
2. What message could Rashid possibly get from the future that would lead to the chain of events in the book (sending Harry after Molly with Bob while sending someone to Harry's house at the same time to find and fix the flaw in LC) without revealing and therefore fixing a bad future as unfixable?

My replies:
1. The problem I have with a non-foresight equipped Mab fixing Little Chicago is the level of baby-sitting involved in stopping Harry from using it before the fix. At the very least, it involves:
- Sending someone to run him over so that he'll get home later
- Orchestrating the attack on Pell so that boyfriend Nelson will be arrested in time for Molly to have to call Harry to bail him out
- Reconnecting Harry's phone
- Not kidnapping Molly until LC has been fixed

However, someone with access to future knowledge knows that all of the above will happen already, so they don't need to do it themselves. After all, the consensus here is that the Chrysler attack was done by Ace, and the phone call in the middle of the ritual, I would argue, if it's not a coincidence, is courtesy of angelic coincidental intervention (the same way Michael appears during the trial).

2. OK, first of all, a caveat: WoJ is that when Bob doesn't know an answer, he'll give a theoretical answer or just his best guess. Why is this important? Because during the events of PG, Bob didn't know about time travel and foresight. We've seen plenty of things, from the Oracle spirit in Death Masks to the discussion with Odin in Cold Days that propose that Bob highly overrates how paradox works.

But, if we assume that Bob is right, and that a message from the future must be a) true, and b) inevitable, and c) intended to change something that is not directly mentioned by the message itself, then it should be possible to imagine a Bad Future that would lead to a message that will help Rashid figure out what he needs to do here (think Heroes if you ever watched that show). You earlier accused me of twisting facts to fit the theory; I think I may just be doing that with the bit below.

So, elements of this bad future (located inside the Spoiler):

(click to show/hide)

1. Molly is still important, and the events of Splattercon!!! are likely very similar to what we see. Molly is probably still taken, and Harry probably still tries to use Little Chicago, with fatal results.
2. Harry does not throw Summer Fire into Winter's Wellspring. The armies of Winter are not called from the Walls. No Outsiders take this opportunity to enter through the Gates.
3. Without Harry, Molly stays in Winter, and proceeds to be molded by Winter's philosophy. Maeve recognizes Molly for what she is: an understudy, and Nemesis likely sets her up and has her killed.
4. Without the Outsider reinforcements breaking in while Winter's army was distracted defending the Wellspring, there are less Outsiders in the World. However, without Summer free from guarding its borders from Winter, more of the Outsiders attacking the White Council survived the attack. So the total number of Outsiders inside Reality may be more or less than in the normal timeline.
5. Without Harry as Winter Knight breathing down Maeve's neck, the attack on Demonreach likely doesn't take place. Nemesis instead decides to continue to stick to the long game.
6. It is still likely, however, that Maeve still kills Lily, forcing Sarissa to replace her.
7. Without a Knight, and with a Lady who's infected and kills every replacement before they can be trained, Mab and the Gatekeeper find their position too weakened to continue to defend the Gates.

The bad future I envision, basically, is one where Mab doesn't have a second option for Maeve's replacement hidden away, forcing her to keep Maeve alive. Molly is the ideal candidate for the job, and in order to keep her hidden, Harry has to live and take her on as his apprentice. On the other hand, if Harry ever finds out that his apprentice is destined to become Winter Lady, he'll do everything in his power to stop it from happening. So, with those constraints in mind, here's the message I would send, if I were future Rashid:

"A user of dark magic will gain Winter's Favor.  Fate and coincidence will stop Chicago's Warden from using the scrying tool he developed with Kemmler's familiar until X nights after the warlock's execution."

X is the number of days between the start of PG and when he actually uses LC (can't remember off the top of my head). It's a fairly subtle way of giving Rashid a deadline without telling him something bad, wouldn't you agree?

(The spoiler box below contains wizard nelson's posts I'm replying to).

(click to show/hide)

@wyltok
1 ummm...... damn! uhh... yea your right. i looked thinking to find the quote, now why did i think that? Mmmm...
2 yea but not necessarily the i see the future kind. like duck i opt for the "I am mab! i've thought of everything fool!" answer along the lines of sun tzu kinda gathered intelligence. mabs just good like that, its her job.
3 i assume that was so you'd understand rashids msg and how it worked? rashid knowing to hit harry to divert him is a little iffy though. how can you get that msg across in a vague way(as i believe future GK MUST be to not screw with the timeline). i mean "harry gets into a car wreck at precisely 2:45" is too informativ. i suppose rashid steal  a car to tail harry and keep on the lookout and was driving it when future rashid sends back a description of the same car he's driving. viola 2+2=4 rashid realises he must hit harry because he's driving the car that does it. yes i know i'm supporting your idea now    and my ps3 will cut this off soon so 4 willbenextpost

THAT is great butcher forshadowing. it jives right with me.

4  kinda yea. the only event in the future that would give rashid all the pertainent info needed would be harry dying. i don't see any other reason rashid could know about LC, or that it had a fatal flaw in the future except this event. thats really meddling in time there.

not to retcon on things but it seems to me altering time requires the mortal touch of free will. just as in DB changing harry's fate was an act of free will in the face of predestination. so a god to facilitate the working and a mortal to carry out the actions. dude look at it this way. time manipulation is odin/kringles forte and harry owes him a favor. this sets up the presumed time travel jim says will probably happen. IF on the other hand the time thing refers to harry doing kringles job one snowy christmas eve and stretching time to visit every kid in the world, i'd be cool with that too 

[wyltok]

point one: Dead Beat

after he refuses to take the WK job, Mab still helps him anyway. PG 180. Hard back

"I must do what I might to preserve your life. Know this, Mortal: should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the word.."

Actually, if you read a little bit before that, you realize that even when Mab was replying strictly as Lea, she'd already revealed that Lea knew about the Word of Kemmler ("The Word of Kemmler. Has it been found?"). So that little tidbit is actually based on Lea's knowledge, not Mab's. The fact that she even says that she must do it makes it sound like she's doing it out of (Lea's) obligation rather than because she wants to or believes it will prove beneficial in the future (though of course, the beauty of motivations is that one can have more than one at a time).

Which makes sense; considering how similar the Erlking's ascension is with the Dark Hallow, and that it requires the Erlking in the first place, it doesn't surprise me that any Fae who was alive when Kemmler first attempted it heard all about it.

and she does one of her prophecy moments the next page away :

"one day you shall kneel at my feet."

these are kind of important, because Mab cannot lie. If she uses future tense like that, it means its something she has foreseen. and there a bunch of them.

(I have a standing WAG that after the series is over, a reader will be able to go thru the books and check off everything Mab said.. its very Jim, somehow.)

...Isn't this a classic example of those "squishy words" you abscribe to Mab? I mean, as it stands, we know she can physically move him however she wants. All she's saying here is that he will be in that physical pose, not that he'll accept the job; perfect Fae play on words. She can say such a thing because she firmly believes it to be true; we know from Ghost Story that she can say something that's wrong so long as she believes it to be true.

Ironically, both the spirt and the letter of the statement did happen, just on different books. Harry knelt at her feet during Small Favor, and Harry took the deal during Changes (no kneeling involved, though). But it doesn't change the fact that this was no prophecy, this was playing on words to put psychological pressure on Harry.

in CD, Harry doesn't question if Mab can see the future, but how far

"could Mab see that far ahead? or was this simply a case of superior preparedness in action? "

as to the things Mab said in CD at the end, she deliberately used squishy language. She has gotten very good at letting Harry assume what he wants to hear.

Out of curiosity, where exactly is the squishyness in "It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve" and "I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place" if she had future knowledge of what was about to happen?

In any case, it's also worth pointing out that it wasn't Harry that said the Mab was surprised by Maeve's actions, it was Maeve herself who said it. I'm willing to say that after more than a few centuries, Maeve would know if Mab saw it coming or not.

the one thing (and maybe its just egotism) that make me think Mab is the more likely is the logic chain. Using it, back in 2006, I predicted the end of Cold Days with some accuracy. I also predicted that Harry would die, that Mab would brign him back, that it would involve demon reach..

Now I got the details wrong. Time Travel wasn't directly involved, but indirectly thru Mab's precognition; and the attacking force was the outsiders, not the black court.

but it was close enough that even though I had left the board, people started emailing me to say things like 'OMG DUCK !!'

so it must have been somewhat on the ball... lol.

or just very very very lucky.

Oh, my hat's off to you in recognition of your prior achievements, and I'm more than ready for it to happen again. Thing is, though, every angle I look at, it makes sense for Rashid to be much more involved in this book than what we actually saw, and LC is such a big source of involvement, that it makes it seem like he did it instead.

[Ms Duck]

I think well have to disagree about DB, I read that differently, as I don't think Lea knew all the details about the word.

Out of curiosity, where exactly is the squishyness in "It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve" and "I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place" if she had future knowledge of what was about to happen?

'my intention' and 'I meant' can mean many different things.

and Just to be clear, the future in the DF is not absolute. its a potential state; what Mab sees are the things that may happen, not what will. Every time she makes a change, it distorts her vision a bit.

now realize that Nemesis has very similar powers, and the two of them are out to get each other, and things Like PG become clear. Its not one chess game, but hundreds, played at the same time, and the only way to win is to make a move the other side either misses or does not understand.

IMO, all of PG, SmF, and TC was Mab moving a pair of pawns ( Molly and Harry) into place to promote them later. And in order to get away with it, she did 20 other random moves all over the place

people come up with all these theories about 'why mab sent the hobbes' or 'why the fetches killed this person or that' when the easiest answer is ' because they are a distraction'

Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?

[wizard nelson]

in reply to your point 1 your forgetting the WG got involved in PG too. michael even poses the question of maybe the point was to help harry the whole time. mab didn't do it alone the league of extraordinary godkin made a group effort to pull harry's fat outta the fire. mab doesn't need forsight. her mantle is the thing of cold ruthless logic. its a big chess computer capable of running innumerable calculations all at once
2 well.... you had to twist things to get out from under this one, i consider that a win on my point.

[wizard nelson]

@ducky
did you catch the one in CD about mab saying

(click to show/hide)

don't worry mortal, the stars will fall from the sky before mab fullfills not her word.

stars and stones! that really doesn't bode well for mab when cometh the BAT.

Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?

omg so much better than that team jacob/edward bull.

[wyltok]

I think well have to disagree about DB, I read that differently, as I don't think Lea knew all the details about the word.

Neither did the Kemmlerites. It's not a particularly long leap of logic, however, to figure out that the information on the ritual that if the Kemmlerites are after the Word and the Erlking the night before Halloween, it's because they believe the Word has details on the Dark Hallow. I would say that's a leap of logic Lea could make. So yeah, agree to disagree on this one.

'my intention' and 'I meant' can mean many different things.

Such as?

and Just to be clear, the future in the DF is not absolute. its a potential state; what Mab sees are the things that may happen, not what will. Every time she makes a change, it distorts her vision a bit.

Boy, is that a debatable statement. Literally, in fact: you're taking part in a separate topic on that very statement right now. However, if that's the case, it's only true for Mab. Uriel and angels in general actually seem to fix the future by their actions (like, say, 7 words, or Uriel telling Harry "Consider Odin's words carefully" or however it went) rather than distorting it. Similarly, Odin seems to know exactly the impact his words will have on Harry and the future. Not sure why hers would work that way...

now realize that Nemesis has very similar powers, and the two of them are out to get each other, and things Like PG become clear. Its not one chess game, but hundreds, played at the same time, and the only way to win is to make a move the other side either misses or does not understand.

IMO, all of PG, SmF, and TC was Mab moving a pair of pawns ( Molly and Harry) into place to promote them later.

Why does it have to be Mab? Everyone in the know is playing chess against Nemesis (except maybe Mother Winter). Since Mab states that the end result wasn't what she intended, why couldn't it be another player's plan? Maybe a wizard who's job is specifically to fight against beings like Nemesis? So much so, in fact, that they call him by a title related to his fight with Nemesis' species?

And in order to get away with it, she did 20 other random moves all over the place

people come up with all these theories about 'why mab sent the hobbes' or 'why the fetches killed this person or that' when the easiest answer is ' because they are a distraction'

... That's not actually how a good chess player works. There are no random moves. There are, however, sacrifices that must be made in order to gain a better position to stop the enemy's plans.

Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?

Depends. What would the logo be?

in reply to your point 1 your forgetting the WG got involved in PG too. michael even poses the question of maybe the point was to help harry the whole time. mab didn't do it alone the league of extraordinary godkin made a group effort to pull harry's fat outta the fire. mab doesn't need forsight. her mantle is the thing of cold ruthless logic. its a big chess computer capable of running innumerable calculations all at once

Actually, I brought up the same point in my reply to you. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough. Here's the thing, though: there's only one way to know that the WG's team will get involved in keeping Harry safe. That is foresight. Unless, of course, one has faith. In which case, even if you don't know, you believe that he will intervene.

Harry had faith in the WG at the end of PG. Like you said, Mab is the Queen of cold logic and Quid Pro Quo. Do you really think there's space anywhere in her personality for faith? If she doesn't have faith, or foresight, how can she know when the WG is going to intervene to keep Harry safe?

She can't, meaning, she had to do everything herself. And frankly, that particular "everything" is a doozy.

2 well.... you had to twist things to get out from under this one, i consider that a win on my point.

Aww, man, that's not fair! You asked me to come up with a possible message from the future, and I did, and now you say that's cheating?! Damned, if I do, damned if I don't 

On a more serious note, one can no longer say that it's impossible for Rashid to receive a message from the future with enough details to push him in the right direction, considering that I managed to come up with one. So I'm going to go ahead and consider it a win, too.

... Uhm, what was the point of me doing that again? I kinda forgot and just did it 'cause I thought it was a neat exercise.

[Ms Duck]

I just want to address this point:

... That's not actually how a good chess player works. There are no random moves. There are, however, sacrifices that must be made in order to gain a better position to stop the enemy's plans.

because its a bit.. well, wrong

I am, or was, a very good chess player in my college days. Went to the state championship more then once.

Chess is full of what im talking about; the decoy, the cross check, the discovery.. the best games in the world come from making moves to distract the enemy in one direction then  reveal a new hidden threat elsewhere.

beyond that, what Mab does is a variation of speed chess in which a master player plays dozens of games at once against all comers;  to make it real fun, half of them are played blind. its round robin speed Xanatos gambit chess. And she's very good at it.

There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened.

[wizard nelson]

there's only one way to know that the WG's team will get involved in keeping Harry safe. That is foresight. Unless, of course, one has faith. In which case, even if you don't know, you believe that he will intervene.

hows this forsight? because the WG is omnipotent and knows harry's dumb ass has to save the world one day so he pulls fat from fryer? WG intervenes all the time even to people who don't actually believe like sanya.

Do you really think there's space anywhere in her personality for faith? If she doesn't have faith, or foresight, how can she know when the WG is going to intervene to keep Harry safe?

she doesn't need it, she has proven capable of following the actions of WG archangels in Smf and GS.  the WG and mab have had interest in positive outcomes in multiple books. and either by incidence or design do work along side each other. so

[wizard nelson]

"A user of dark magic will gain Winter's Favor.  Fate and coincidence will stop Chicago's Warden from using the scrying tool he developed with Kemmler's familiar until X nights after the warlock's execution."

that doesn't do it for me. winters favor? so? nothing about scrying tool needing fixing? and wouldn't he need a specific time of day? its not like night explains when harry used it. to clarify he would have had to tail harrys every move directly, mab has servants, and can blink.

Aww, man, that's not fair! You asked me to come up with a possible message from the future, and I did, and now you say that's cheating?! Damned, if I do, damned if I don't

yep. no worries. i consider myself correct until proven wrong. if you can't, then my opinion is just as valid as yours until i prove yours invalid. this is a win. remember "there are many truths but only one set of facts".

[robertltux]

Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?

Cool idea but then we would need a good head and shoulders picture of MAB (and just for fun Titania)

[Ms Duck]

Cool idea but then we would need a good head and shoulders picture of MAB (and just for fun Titania)

just hit google for winter queen. there are tons