The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]

[wyltok]

Back OT, I doubt summer fire had anything to do with N and im sure it didn't leave the gates unguarded. The forces that were called back were Mab's border guards, and her reserve force, under the command of the Erlking. That's what, a 1/1000 th of her total force?

Keep in mind, Harry actually asked Lea who was coming to Arctis Tor as a result of his attack. Her reply was “Why, all of Winter, child. All of us.” Is there any particular reason you're doubting her word? Is this like how when she says in Summer Knight that Mab and Titania are on the same level as the archangels and the lesser gods, you say that she's wrong? (At least, I think that was you? It was in the topic about relative power levels where you quoted your previously calculated values. Could have been someone else in the topic, though, in which case, I apologize for the case of mistaken identity.)

Out of curiosity, what do you think was the Gatekeeper's purpose in warning Harry about the Dark Magic at the beginning of Proven Guilty? To borrow a bit from Jim himself, what chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it? If I'm reading your interpretation right, it doesn't seem to have actually accomplished anything at all...

[Ms Duck]

Keep in mind, Harry actually asked Lea who was coming to Arctis Tor as a result of his attack. Her reply was “Why, all of Winter, child. All of us.” Is there any particular reason you're doubting her word? Is this like how when she says in Summer Knight that Mab and Titania are on the same level as the archangels and the lesser gods, you say that she's wrong? (At least, I think that was you? It was in the topic about relative power levels where you quoted your previously calculated values. Could have been someone else in the topic, though, in which case, I apologize for the case of mistaken identity.)

Out of curiosity, what do you think was the Gatekeeper's purpose in warning Harry about the Dark Magic at the beginning of Proven Guilty? To borrow a bit from Jim himself, what chain of events did that set in motion?  What secondary effects came about because of it? If I'm reading your interpretation right, it doesn't seem to have actually accomplished anything at all...

because being possessed by nemesis allows a sidhe to be less than honest, and she was obviously not functioning on all gears at the time?

and Lea gets rather poetic at times. Also, Jim uses the word 'peer' in terms of status not power level.

its a doylist interpretation for me: the reader needs to know how foresight and prophecy work, and what steps it takes to change the foreseen future. To harry, its a heads up that he is involved in such a prophecy somehow.

from GK's pov, I think he may have been testing the waters. At this point, he was half convinced Harry had been infected by N and wanted to see what happens.

frankly I think if GK was involved at all it was as Mab's agent. It was her plan, she started the ball rolling.. its quite plausible she briefed GK, but she may not of.

[wyltok]

because being possessed by nemesis allows a sidhe to be less than honest, and she was obviously not functioning on all gears at the time?

Fair enough, I figured that would be your reply. I can't imagine the advantage to Nemesis in making the threat seem bigger than it was instead of smaller, though.

and Lea gets rather poetic at times. Also, Jim uses the word 'peer' in terms of status not power level.

Uhm, what Lea actually said was that the Queens have "power to rival the archangels and lesser gods." I don't really see how there's a lot of room for interpretation and poetry in that, but that may just be me.

from GK's pov, I think he may have been testing the waters. At this point, he was half convinced Harry had been infected by N and wanted to see what happens.

Would you mind expanding on this a bit? I'm not sure I see what you mean here.

frankly I think if GK was involved at all it was as Mab's agent. It was her plan, she started the ball rolling.. its quite plausible she briefed GK, but she may not of.

...Considering that we've actually seem Rashid look into the future in text (Turn Coat) and that there was a whole scene with Bob and Harry discussing how Rashid likely saw into the future in this book, wouldn't Occam's Razor (and Doylist analysis) suggest that it was the other way around, and it was Rashid who briefed Mab and led her to get the ball rolling?

[Ms Duck]

1- im not sure how much control nemesis has over his agents, frankly, half the time it seems all he can do is drive em nuts.

2- define 'power to rival'. also 'lesser gods'. frankly some of these numbers I came up with for power level are so insanely huge that there is a lot of wiggle room.

3- if you believe GK, then until TC he suspected Harry of being an agent of the enemy.  If he interferes at all it will be with considerable caution.

4- this actually remind me of another debate about another Jim book. Back when the second furies book came out, I concluded that the main queen - HIB- had furies, due to her blood connection to Tavi, and that explained some of her tactics and plans.

this idea met with rich mockery and several flame wars, with each succeeding book getting worse; Jim would drop another hint that HIB had furies, and people would come up with these really impressive logical arguments how its not correct, it cant be true, etc etc.. My favorite was the thread dedicated to how HIB flies with the aid of insect wings she had hidden under her cloak, and that's why she wears the cloak.. there was even accompanying illustrations.

the 'Mab has precognition' thing is pretty much the same. And much like the previous discussion, it will only be resolved when Mab walks around telling the future.. oh wait, she's done that.

maybe if she shows up with a t shirt saying ' seen then, done that' .. or a neon sign. Yup , that might work.

   

[wyltok]

No need to go that far. Let's consider the events of last October, when we were presented with a pin-up calendar image of Molly as Winter Lady. Had anyone actually looked at that image and reached that conclusion, with the evidence available at that time, they would have deserved to be disregarded and/or flamed. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and up until then, we had never seen anyone not of Fae blood pick up the mantle.

(And we were told that Lily was the first not-fully-Fae Lady, even! And then Jim told us that Lily was lying to herself, and she had been forced to choose Fae by the mantle! See how all the evidence points away from it being possible for Molly to become Winter Lady?).

And yet... that's exactly what happened. And yet, just because it's what happened, it doesn't mean that logic would have allowed us to see it coming. It just means that, as Spock pointed out a long time ago, logic is not the only path to wisdom.

[Ms Duck]

No need to go that far. Let's consider the events of last October, when we were presented with a pin-up calendar image of Molly as Winter Lady. Had anyone actually looked at that image and reached that conclusion, with the evidence available at that time, they would have deserved to be disregarded and/or flamed. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and up until then, we had never seen anyone not of Fae blood pick up the mantle.

(And we were told that Lily was the first not-fully-Fae Lady, even! And then Jim told us that Lily was lying to herself, and she had been forced to choose Fae by the mantle! See how all the evidence points away from it being possible for Molly to become Winter Lady?).

And yet... that's exactly what happened. And yet, just because it's what happened, it doesn't mean that logic would have allowed us to see it coming. It just means that, as Spock pointed out a long time ago, logic is not the only path to wisdom.

But I did come to the conclusion that molly would become winter, thru logic...

several years prior to that. The pic was just icing on the cake

[Griffyn612]

But I did come to the conclusion that molly would become winter, thru logic...

several years prior to that. The pic was just icing on the cake

If "Molly travels back in time and gets left behind, eventually completing a Darkhallow and ascending to become Mab" is the same as "Molly became Winter Lady when Maeve died", then Vairelome and I were right about Lea's madness being because she was possessed my HWWBh.   http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32204.msg1403385.html#msg1403385

"Lea was possessed by HWWBh" = "Lea was Infected by Nemesis". 

[Ms Duck]

If "Molly travels back in time and gets left behind, eventually completing a Darkhallow and ascending to become Mab" is the same as "Molly became Winter Lady when Maeve died", then Vairelome and I were right about Lea's madness being because she was possessed my HWWBh.   http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32204.msg1403385.html#msg1403385

"Lea was possessed by HWWBh" = "Lea was Infected by Nemesis".

there were always two versions of that, Molly/ Mab and Mab/ LC.

the first took some serious WAGs and may or may not have any relevance.

the second came dang close, and also predicted a connection between Molly and winter without ever specifying what that connection was.

the reason for the two was the question : How does Mab predict the future?

If it was time travel, then Mab is a character we know now by another name. Hence, Molly.

If it was by precognition, then Mab can just be herself. But she still kidnapped molly for a reason, and that reason has something to do with winter; ergo, Molly is important to winter..

then I got on my logic choo choo train and drove around for a bit.

 

and Ill accept your conclusion about Lea and Nemesis, frankly. its close enough for hand grenades to me; when making WAGS we cant be held responsible for elements Jim hasn't shown yet.

[Griffyn612]

there were always two versions of that, Molly/ Mab and Mab/ LC.

the first took some serious WAGs and may or may not have any relevance.

the second came dang close, and also predicted a connection between Molly and winter without ever specifying what that connection was.

the reason for the two was the question : How does Mab predict the future?

If it was time travel, then Mab is a character we know now by another name. Hence, Molly.

If it was by precognition, then Mab can just be herself. But she still kidnapped molly for a reason, and that reason has something to do with winter; ergo, Molly is important to winter..

then I got on my logic choo choo train and drove around for a bit.

 

and Ill accept your conclusion about Lea and Nemesis, frankly. its close enough for hand grenades to me; when making WAGS we cant be held responsible for elements Jim hasn't shown yet.

I also take credit for being right about Demonreach being an island prison.  I originally said it was an island, and that's half of "island prison".          

[Ms Duck]

I also take credit for being right about Demonreach being an island prison.  I originally said it was an island, and that's half of "island prison".          

you get one nano point for that. 

[Griffyn612]

you get one nano point for that. 

Thus do I combine that nano point with my other 4 CD nano points (WAGs: Molly-is-still-unrequited; Murphy-still-has-cold-feet; Harry-still-doesn't-get-laid; Harry-will-drive-a-badly-painted-hearse) to buy an authentic Harry Dresden hat reproduction.