[All Spoils] Key Words for Outsider Magic and Mordite

[Elegast]

  And I still don't know why she had to be pretending there was a summoner bringing the fetches.

That was in Mab's plan. She had to convince Harry to use a redirection spell to bring Molly. And at that point Mab didn't know that Maeve was infected.

See here my thoughts on PG.

[wizard nelson]

myrk is an aspect of hobs. if it didn't show up directly as a result of their presence then someone with similar aspects of magic summoned it for them. molly didn't create it. how would helping the hobs save anybody? myrk is something to do with hobs in myths too, its associated with them from before the dresden files were a twinkle in jims eye.

[Griffyn612]

That was in Mab's plan. She had to convince Harry to use a redirection spell to bring Molly. And at that point Mab didn't know that Maeve was infected.

See here my thoughts on PG.

Harry's spell made sure that the fetches went back at the person that summoned them, and not anyone else.  What you're saying is that Molly summoned the fetches, and Mab made sure Harry realized someone was summoning the fetches by having Maeve pretend to be a summoner in the room with one fetch, casting a myrk and ward combo?  Because if Mab or Maeve sent the fetches, rather than Molly summoning them (unknowningly), then Harry's spell wouldn't have worked.

This is why I hated PG the first time around, and it's always been my least-favorite book.  My hopes of TTH are that everything that wasn't answered in PG would eventually be answered. 

And we don't know that Mab didn't know.  We only know that Mab knows when she doesn't talk; and she didn't talk in PG.

[wyltok]

I don't see where casting a myrk, which is a physical manifestation, and casting an illusion, which is a mental or light manipulation, are teh same thing.

Pretty sure those are the same thing. Besides, like I previously mentioned, Molly's done the murk (not myrk) again after this book. Namely, she did it on Luccio in Turn Coat.

I don't see where an amateur spellcaster with no experience or training can cast a physical myrk and a physical ward, especially when their natural talent lies in non-physical magic.

The ward wasn't physical. It was mental (like the mind fog), urging people to not get any closer. Somewhat like the compulsion / binding Maeve laid on Slate back in Summer Knight, actually (which is why she's usually proposed as the person behind it, though like I said, it certainly fits Molly the mind-magic warlock's MO just as well, if not better).

In addition, I've always thought that Molly was busy casting at the time of the attacks.  Molly was trying to scare Nelson and Rosie.  At the first attack, in the bathroom, we don't know where Molly was.  But the second attack, which was the Rosie attack, Molly took off, saying there were things she needed to do.  For the third spell, when Harry reversed it back on the caster, there was a delay.  He thought it would be sooner, but it took a while.  That was because Molly was in the car with Charity and Forthill, driving home.  As soon as he got home, the third attack commenced.

I think Molly was casting a spell that focused on her friends, trying to keep up the induced fear in them, so that they wouldn't abuse.  The fetches came across from the NN in those places (Nelson in the bathroom; Rosie in the theatre) because they were drawn to the fear spell.  For the third attack, they remained at the convention because of the build-up of fear there due to the other attacks and the movies being shown. 

If someone else had been casting to bring the fetches across, or even send them, then Harry's spell would have sent the fetches at them, not at Molly.

So your theory is that the fetches have terrible aim (always attacking people other than the one who attracted them first) and then stop acting in the pattern they were following for no discernible reason? That just... sounds a bit too far-fetched to me?

[Elegast]

Harry's spell made sure that the fetches went back at the person that summoned them, and not anyone else.  What you're saying is that Molly summoned the fetches, and Mab made sure Harry realized someone was summoning the fetches by having Maeve pretend to be a summoner in the room with one fetch, casting a myrk and ward combo?  Because if Mab or Maeve sent the fetches, rather than Molly summoning them (unknowningly), then Harry's spell wouldn't have worked.

No.

The mechanism of the spell is explained:

“Their summoner is going to draw them in,” I finished, following the line of reasoning. “It’s like… I could blanket the surrounding area in fog, but if they have someone on this end, the phages will have a beacon they can use to home in on the hotel.”

“Sure,” Bob said. “I mean, you have everything you need for that. You know the phages are after fear, and that they’re probably using his power as a beacon. Your web tells you something is stirring. You conjure up a big ball of fear, target the same beacon the phages are using, and let it fly.”

Harry thought the summoner and the beacon were the same person. So he sent the fetches to the beacon. In fact, Mab was sending the fetches from the NN using Molly as a beacon.

[Griffyn612]

myrk is an aspect of hobs. if it didn't show up directly as a result of their presence then someone with similar aspects of magic summoned it for them. molly didn't create it. how would helping the hobs save anybody? myrk is something to do with hobs in myths too, its associated with them from before the dresden files were a twinkle in jims eye.

I think you got jumbled.  In SmF, the hobbs bring myrk with them to the train station so that the light is blotted out, because they're allergic to light.  In PG, someone casts myrk to cause confusion and fear, increasing the emotions that the fetch feeds on.  The question is who cast the myrk at the convention, and why. 

Pretty sure those are the same thing. Besides, like I previously mentioned, Molly's done the murk (not myrk) again after this book. Namely, she did it on Luccio in Turn Coat.

The ward wasn't physical. It was mental (like the mind fog), urging people to not get any closer. Somewhat like the compulsion / binding Maeve laid on Slate back in Summer Knight, actually (which is why she's usually proposed as the person behind it, though like I said, it certainly fits Molly the mind-magic warlock's MO just as well, if not better).

So your theory is that the fetches have terrible aim (always attacking people other than the one who attracted them first) and then stop acting in the pattern they were following for no discernible reason? That just... sounds a bit too far-fetched to me?

1)  The thing she did to Luccio was mental magic; she didn't shroud Luccio's head in darkness.  It was an illusion.  The myrk isn't an illusion.  It's a physical manifestation.  Harry says in SmF that “It’s matter from the Nevernever. Think of it as a cellophane filter, only instead of being around a light, it is spread all through the air. That’s why we couldn’t see the light from my amulet, and why the muzzle flash of my gun was so muted."  Molly has never cast a physical matter like myrk on a wide-area.  When she manipulates light and sound, she's doing so in a small, regionalized area.  The only time she casts a wide-area illusion is in CD, where she gets sapped by casting the mist over water.  If she knew how to cast a myrk, she could have done so.
2)  The ward sounded pretty physical to me.  As physical as any manifestation of magic.  The gloom began to press in closer to me, and it became an effort of will to hold up the light in my amulet against it. A few steps more and the air grew even colder. Walking forward became an effort, like wading through waist-deep water. I had to lean against it, and I heard a grunt of effort come out of my mouth.  As you said, it's similar to the casting Maeve threw at Slate in SK.  But in that instance, Harry saw the casting, which was visible as blue motes floating through the air.  It also had an anchor on Slate, as it was working through the tattoo.  It was manipulation of the tattoo, and their link, that allowed her to slow Slate down.  She couldn't do the same against Harry in PG, because he wasn't the WK, and he didn't have a tattoo.
3)  The fetches come across at the focus of the fear spell.  Once there, they feed off of fear.  When the first fetch came through the mirror, Pell saw him, and his fear spiked.  The fetch then attacked Pell.  In the second attack, the anchor was Rosie.  Once there, it fed off the fear of everyone present, and simply attacked.  Molly was targeting Nelson and Rosie with her fear spell, which is what the fetches followed.  When Harry reverse the spell on Molly, he sent the fear spell back at her, which the fetches then followed to her house.  I don't see how that's against their nature at all.  When did they stop acting in the pattern?

No.

The mechanism of the spell is explained:
Harry thought the summoner and the beacon were the same person. So he sent the fetches to the beacon. In fact, Mab was sending the fetches from the NN using Molly as a beacon.

That doesn't work because the phages were still focused on the convention center in the last attack.  If Mab was sending the fetches from the NN and using Molly as a beacon, then they would appear near Molly.  But they never did.  The last fetch even showed up at the convention, despite Molly being at home.  Harry speculates in the book that maybe the numbers were increasing because of the growing fear at the convention.  So that explains why one might have been there; it wasn't sent, it just came because of the fear.

But Molly was never present when the fetches appeared, and the victims of her black magic were.  If Molly were the beacon, they would have come to her. 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Harry's spell made sure that the fetches went back at the person that summoned them, and not anyone else.  What you're saying is that Molly summoned the fetches, and Mab made sure Harry realized someone was summoning the fetches by having Maeve pretend to be a summoner in the room with one fetch, casting a myrk and ward combo?  Because if Mab or Maeve sent the fetches, rather than Molly summoning them (unknowningly), then Harry's spell wouldn't have worked.

Nobody summoned the fetches, as I understand it; when Harry realises the phages are fetches, he realises they have to have been sent rather than summoned.

His spell appears to find Molly because she's the closest fit to being a mortal cause of them being there, because they originally targeted her black magic, rather than because of her summoning them in any way; his spell is looking for a summoner rather than a sender and it finds the somewhat awkward best fit. (Molly did nothing to choose them being there, but they are still focused on her as a result of her actions.  This seems to me to follow the same pattern as what happens to Molly at the end of CD, in terms of Faerie power's interaction with choice and consequence.)

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

No.
The mechanism of the spell is explained:
Harry thought the summoner and the beacon were the same person. So he sent the fetches to the beacon. In fact, Mab was sending the fetches from the NN using Molly as a beacon.

That explanation is before Harry realises they are fetches and therefore have been sent; it's wrong because it's based on wrong assumptions.

[wizard nelson]

I think you got jumbled.  In SmF, the hobbs bring myrk with them to the train station so that the light is blotted out, because they're allergic to light.  In PG, someone casts myrk to cause confusion and fear, increasing the emotions that the fetch feeds on.  The question is who cast the myrk at the convention, and why.

ahhh yea i saw myrk and hobs in the same post and assumed it was SmF they were talking about. myrk IS associated with hobs in myths. alternative idea. harry mentions its a familiar working but he can't recall were from yes? this wording is associated with elaine alot iirc. elaine has already shown an aptitude for this kinda working with the mind mist in SK. i'd just as easily attribute it to her.

[Griffyn612]

ahhh yea i saw myrk and hobs in the same post and assumed it was SmF they were talking about. myrk IS associated with hobs in myths. alternative idea. harry mentions its a familiar working but he can't recall were from yes? this wording is associated with elaine alot iirc. elaine has already shown an aptitude for this kinda working with the mind mist in SK. i'd just as easily attribute it to her.

The problem is, Harry uses the word familiar to describe almost every working.  That's why in my original key words list for Outsiders, it had to be in tandem with one of the other key words.

[wizard nelson]

familiar outsider workings? i'm not so sure. usually its mortal workings, that are alot of times associated with elaine. he does begin to recognise the feel of outsiders but myrk isn't outsider even the PG one isn't described nearly close enough. cold puts it with winter though really. was not the SmF myrk spell described as cold too? if myrk was outsider related then so are the hobs. they are not. iirc harry says were they come from specifically (winter agents iirc?) accaims razor in light of CD. it was probably maeve. this is why mab changes voice between PG (starts using proxy) and SmF. maeve was meddling in ways mab hadn't ordered or specifically didn't want. its how she figured out maeve was taken.

[kazimmoinuddin]

 WE know magics create attraction or repelent ness to it. WHat if black magic draws ousiderness to a person, which warps them due to it other worldlyness? This magic makes wounds in the world, and outsiders are the infections that grow in them
 Nemesis is described in a similar manner to black magic corruption.

[wizard nelson]

WE know magics create attraction or repelent ness to it. WHat if black magic draws ousiderness to a person, which warps them due to it other worldlyness? This magic makes wounds in the world, and outsiders are the infections that grow in them
 Nemesis is described in a similar manner to black magic corruption.

i had a similar idea. don't think nemesis is directly related to black magic but taking outside into yourself would certainly twist your nature. magic, the force created by humans seems to be what the weave of reality and NN is made of. the NN is the accumulation of human believe from the beginning of time. i was waiting til i could explain it best after some research and brainstorming but *shrug* other people keep bringing it up.

[Griffyn612]

Nobody summoned the fetches, as I understand it; when Harry realises the phages are fetches, he realises they have to have been sent rather than summoned.

His spell appears to find Molly because she's the closest fit to being a mortal cause of them being there, because they originally targeted her black magic, rather than because of her summoning them in any way; his spell is looking for a summoner rather than a sender and it finds the somewhat awkward best fit. (Molly did nothing to choose them being there, but they are still focused on her as a result of her actions.  This seems to me to follow the same pattern as what happens to Molly at the end of CD, in terms of Faerie power's interaction with choice and consequence.)

My issue is still with why the fetches went after Molly with his casting, but not before.  If she were the beacon, they would have been coming to her to begin with. 

Now, if she were an anchor, I could understand it.  But there are too many coincidences with her not being there during the attack.

 - Molly admits that Sandra told her about fear being a motivator to breaking addiction.
 - Molly asks Sandra if Rosie took her pills; Sandra ensures her she has; what pills?
 - Molly admits that she sent Nelson and Rosie nightmares to cause fear in them.
 - Pell is attacked in the bathroom, which Nelson is also in.
 - Molly is not with him at the time.
 - A short time later, Mouse detects black magic on Molly.
 Sp: Molly could have cast a fresh 'nightmare' spell on Nelson, which she didn't realize was summoning the fetch.
 - Molly leaves Harry while he's investigating the scene of the crime.
 - Another fetch materializes around the other friend she's sending nightmares too.
 Sp:  Molly once again left to cast the spell, which once again summoned a fetch to her friend.
 - Harry sets up the reroute spell to cast back at the summoner. 
 - We've seen his spells fail before because they weren't correct (GP)
 - He notes that its taking longer than he expected for the summoner to act again.
 - The last attack doesn't commence until after Molly gets home.
 Sp:  She cast another spell once she was home, still not realizing she was causing the trouble.
 - Harry's spell directs the fetches back at her.
 Sp:  Someone intercedes with the fetches, having them bring Molly back to AT rather than simply kill her.

The argument that someone was sending the fetches rather than summoning them is never confirmed.  Harry speculates it, but that's before he knows about what's going on at AT.  And he says that fetches are grown-up, powerful phages.  They could most likely still be summoned. 

[wizard nelson]

Now, if she were an anchor, I could understand it.  But there are too many coincidences with her not being there during the attack.

so replace beacon as poor choice in words with anchor. viola? simply a misunderstanding from harry trying to explain it.