Alternative Uses for Sponsored Magic Rules

[Crion]

I've been doing some preparation for some games for an anime convention (separate discussion to be posted later if needed/time permits), and I'm working on mapping out a few characters from popular/recent anime. Some of the more spellcaster-types aren't clearly cut in DFRPG rules due to the odd things they are capable of, and I began to wonder if the rules of Sponsored Magic fit better for some of these more "dramatic" styles of gameplay.

One of the examples that stands out the most was due to a discussion with another GM regarding the series Fate/Stay Night. The main character, Shirou, works with "projection magic," where he can "trace" an object, reinforce it, and can conjure things by creating them in his mind. He starts off slow (perhaps doing it with Thaumaturgy's multiple actions for a spell) but then can create powerful objects as an action. My thought was using the rule mechanics Sponsored Magic for such an effect (just without the benefits of the sponsor).

Another was a character from the relatively new Fate/Zero, as his magic involved using insects. His attack spells threw waves of bugs, the bugs would "provide mana" (i.e. take consequences and stress for spells), and he had access to some Thaumaturgy effects. While it can be argued that his magic is just insect themed (a simple variant of channeling and just a flavor of Thaumaturgy), I think the Sponsored approach fits in a bit better.

I don't have my notebook of anime characters with odd magic with me at the moment, so I can't offer more than that (although I can say I think I've already settled most of the medieval series and Full Metal Alchemist without relying on Sponsored Magic).

If anyone has any thoughts on this, or what other things they've done with Sponsored Magic to get the right feel of a specific effect for a setting or character, I would love to hear it!


--Crion

[Hick Jr]

I've used sponsored magic to model the Chandrian (From the Name of the Wind), Doc Scratch from Homestuck, Morpheus from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman, and the Mad Hatter. It's my favorite thing about the DFRPGs spell casting system.

[Deadmanwalking]

I haven't actually done it, but if doing a D&D style fantasy world, obviously Clerics, Druids, and other Divine Casters have Sponsored Magic allowing them to cast healing magic at Evocation speeds. Various other effects would vary by deity/patron, as would the nature of their agenda.

Sorry, that's all I'm coming up with right now, though it can certainly be used for, well, any character who gets their power from someone or something else.

[Sanctaphrax]

Funny that you should bring this up. Oblyss just posted something similar to the Power list thread. And of course there's Tracing, which you can find on that Power list.

That aside, you should probably look here.

PS: D&D-style Vancian casting is pretty similar to enchanted items without the items.

[Crion]

I haven't actually done it, but if doing a D&D style fantasy world, obviously Clerics, Druids, and other Divine Casters have Sponsored Magic allowing them to cast healing magic at Evocation speeds. Various other effects would vary by deity/patron, as would the nature of their agenda.

It makes enough sense, as that is what the theme of Sponsored Magic is (with or without the Sponsor Agenda depending on the realm, of course). A friend of mine was considering using Fate in lieu of D&D after considering options like this.

Funny that you should bring this up. Oblyss just posted something similar to the Power list thread. And of course there's Tracing, which you can find on that Power list.

That aside, you should probably look here.

PS: D&D-style Vancian casting is pretty similar to enchanted items without the items.

Which Power List are you referring to? I know there are quite a few out there, and the search function and I haven't really been on the best of terms the past few times.

The list for Sponsored Magic is fun to sift through, just to see the sponsors people have come up with. Interesting, but not ideal for what I'm looking at.

I should also note that I haven't been a fan of Vancian Magic since I started playing other games. I find it too limiting, but that's just my opinion.

I've used sponsored magic to model the Chandrian (From the Name of the Wind), Doc Scratch from Homestuck, Morpheus from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman, and the Mad Hatter. It's my favorite thing about the DFRPGs spell casting system.

So how did all of that go? Did you just use those entities as Sponsors, or did you use Sponsored Magic mechanics to emulate the magic those characters used?

I have a few of my notes with me; will post them if I can tonight.

[Oblyss]

It makes enough sense, as that is what the theme of Sponsored Magic is (with or without the Sponsor Agenda depending on the realm, of course). A friend of mine was considering using Fate in lieu of D&D after considering options like this.

Which Power List are you referring to? I know there are quite a few out there, and the search function and I haven't really been on the best of terms the past few times.

The list for Sponsored Magic is fun to sift through, just to see the sponsors people have come up with. Interesting, but not ideal for what I'm looking at.

I should also note that I haven't been a fan of Vancian Magic since I started playing other games. I find it too limiting, but that's just my opinion.
So how did all of that go? Did you just use those entities as Sponsors, or did you use Sponsored Magic mechanics to emulate the magic those characters used?

I have a few of my notes with me; will post them if I can tonight.

Yaaaay someone mentioned my name.

Anyway, here you go Crion. Sanct's talking about this list here.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25794.825.html

I brought up Unlimited Blade Works in it, trying to work it up to put on my wizard in my own game.

[Crion]

Yaaaay someone mentioned my name.

Anyway, here you go Crion. Sanct's talking about this list here.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25794.825.html

I brought up Unlimited Blade Works in it, trying to work it up to put on my wizard in my own game.

So should we now say that we should conjure your name at our own risk? :-D

I may have to pick your brain a bit on this, probably via PM if you're up for it. My only experience with the Fate series from Type-Moon is Stay Night and Zero.

[Oblyss]

So should we now say that we should conjure your name at our own risk? :-D

I may have to pick your brain a bit on this, probably via PM if you're up for it. My only experience with the Fate series from Type-Moon is Stay Night and Zero.

Hah. And sure feel free to, I don't pretend to be a Type-Moon expert but I definitely love it's affiliated works. I'm currently working on including a bit of it in my current game at my GM's approval, though I'm trying to make it fit. Except for Unlimited Blade Works, I love that power so much I just don't care if it fits or not, my one exception. Luckily my GM's cool with it.

[Hick Jr]

So how did all of that go? Did you just use those entities as Sponsors, or did you use Sponsored Magic mechanics to emulate the magic those characters used?

I have a few of my notes with me; will post them if I can tonight.

Both, generally. The Green Sun is a sponsor, the Chandrian are wielders of a custom sponsored magic because it was the only way I could think of to represent their powers, mechanically speaking, and Oneiromancy is a subset of psychomancy that's cooler than regular psychomancy.

I feel they went pretty well. I also designed a few generic ones that are a little weirder, but they turned out well. Read the Sponsored Magic master list. It's an experience.

[Crion]

Okay, here's some of what I have on hand. Underlined is what I have already solved, Italics are the ones I'm still looking at using the mechanics of Sponsored Magic for. Again, this is for an anime convention I'm attending, so. . .

I am also up for how you emulated magic in another series, especially if it relies on the Sponsored Magic approach.

Witch Hunter Robin: Easy to emulate with simple Channeling and Psychic Powers.

Slayers: Easy enough with Evocation, Thaumaturgy and Items of Power. Sponsored Magic works as normal, so no real need for a hackup.

Anything with a form of "Blade Magic": Throw it in as Channeling/Evocation with either a special Limitation of weapons only, an invoking of an Aspect to keep it Weapons Only, or by making the weapon an Item of Power. Add in a stunt to use Weapons instead of Discipline. Additionally, can use some of the Sponsored Magic related to this topic depending on the source.

Darker Than Black: This one got some discussion. I was going to leave it as Channeling with an Aspect that gets invoked afterward (i.e. the Remuneration), but one of my soundboard monkeys suggested that it would work better with Sponsored. Thoughts?

Fullmetal Alchemist: I was originally looking at Sponsored Magic here, but started to lean more toward creative applications of Channeling/Thaumaturgy with a requirement of an Alchemist Circle (make it either an invoke of the High Concept or as a "limitation" to the power). Only problem with that is the time involved, as we see characters doing relatively large and complicated effects rather quickly, but the biggest ones taking more time (perhaps as Aspects to make the spell easier?).

Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero: For the most part, most of the magic of the magi in this series would work well with the standard fare of Evocation/Thaumaturgy, with a few exceptions of Sponsored Magic here and there. Summoning the Servants appears to be an odd combination of standard Thaumaturgy (as it has to be a ritual the first time) and Sponsored Magic (command spells to summon). Some of the magic (like Tracing, as mentioned in the other threads) just seems to work only for Sponsored Magic. The other oddities can be lumped either as Items of Power, Enchanted Items, or as specific powers (some of which need work, like the Reality Marbles). Servants, as a whole, seem to be a whole different beast that I don't think has a Fate/DFRPG parallel.

Generic Shounen Anime: This includes series like Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, etc. I think it can be emulated well enough as-is without having to finaggle Sponsored Magic to emulate anything. Anyone think otherwise, or can name a series that would benefit from a "Self-Sponsor" approach?

Maoyuu: A friend of mine mentioned this, and I haven't had the chance to watch it (may not have enough time prior to my deadline). The main character can, for example, create and heal spirits, and teleport to anywhere he's been. The former could be Ritual: Summoning (but doesn't cover the healing), but if he's doing it quickly (which it sounds like), that can only be done via Sponsored Magic, and I don't think the setting has a specific sponsor, ergo using the trappings of Sponsored Magic sans the debt. The teleporting thing just sounds like a combination of a power and/or an invocation of a specific aspect.



So that's what I have on hand at the moment. Anyone have any opinions on these?

[Hick Jr]

I'm not the anime type, so most of this is beyond me.

Blade Magic is currently simulated simply by exchanging Discipline and Conviction for Weapons and Might, but your things sound good.

Fullmetal Alchemist could reasonably simulated by transformation/disruption evothaum. Some things like Flame Alchemy could be Breath Weapon or Channeling. The more directly violent types of alchemy could just be evocations flavored as alchemy.

[Oblyss]

Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero: For the most part, most of the magic of the magi in this series would work well with the standard fare of Evocation/Thaumaturgy, with a few exceptions of Sponsored Magic here and there. Summoning the Servants appears to be an odd combination of standard Thaumaturgy (as it has to be a ritual the first time) and Sponsored Magic (command spells to summon). Some of the magic (like Tracing, as mentioned in the other threads) just seems to work only for Sponsored Magic. The other oddities can be lumped either as Items of Power, Enchanted Items, or as specific powers (some of which need work, like the Reality Marbles). Servants, as a whole, seem to be a whole different beast that I don't think has a Fate/DFRPG parallel.

Summoning servants is a little bit vague but pretty simple, the Holy Grail does the heavy lifting on this part normally. So it is a thaumaturgic ritual but one at severely lowered cost as long as you are one of the Masters. The grail will cover the majority of the ritual and it becomes more of a ritual in the historical sense, something ceremonial, than a magic workings. They even comment how you could use the cheapest most random materials for it to perform the ritual, though using more important materials might affect servant stats. So really this is a "one time plot" ritual that you get a "Plot Rebate" on the complexity and power for the ritual. To the point that even bad excuses for magic users can pull it off on the fly. Of course there are also examples of better magic users messing it up a little bit(Archer and Rin).

That's how we're doing it in my game as well to a degree. My GM hasn't commented on it, but they are going to have my PC's new boss give them a powerful artifact for a Thaumaturgic ritual to summon themselves a servant as part of the benefits of their new station. The mechanical benefit hasn't been laid out yet, but basically it will allow the ritual to happen and with mostly a guarantee of no errors, as long as they don't mess up the ritual itself. Otherwise, my GM has said there's no guarantee on loyalty for summoned minions and it's a huge magic cost to try it. Even following the summoned houserules we found on these forums that would normally allow it.

[Crion]

I'm not the anime type, so most of this is beyond me.

No worries on that. You have some extra insight from outside, and that's more helpful than having a bunch of knowledge on anime!

Besides, that's what wikipedia and anime blogs are for!

Blade Magic is currently simulated simply by exchanging Discipline and Conviction for Weapons and Might, but your things sound good.

I had a discussion on this one before in another thread, because I didn't know how best to emulate it. Some suggested making it a Sponsored Magic with what you suggested here, but I felt that while it worked in theory, it didn't work for what my particular player had in mind. I'm all for the swap and relying on heroic spirits, but I don't think it's a perfect catch-all for a good chunk of the blade magic that's out there.

Glad to hear you approve of this idea, though!

Fullmetal Alchemist could reasonably simulated by transformation/disruption evothaum. Some things like Flame Alchemy could be Breath Weapon or Channeling. The more directly violent types of alchemy could just be evocations flavored as alchemy.

When you say EvoThaum, what exactly do you mean?

I can see the same thing with the Flame Alchemy, and how many others can be just a flavoring, but after watching even just a few episodes, I did have to wonder if Sponsored Magic's "Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation" was more fitting.
For example, in the first episode of FMA: Brotherhood, our big villain is doing a large scale spell and did a bunch of preparation (I'm looking at it as prepwork to reduce the difficulty of the spell or just massive bonuses to tag, or simply fewer consequences for that matter), but our heroes cover everything from typical attacks, countering the big magic (i.e. using Fire against Ice; theoretically can be done via current counter magic rules), and other transformation effects that may be outside of the realm of Evocation.

Summoning servants is a little bit vague but pretty simple, the Holy Grail does the heavy lifting on this part normally. So it is a thaumaturgic ritual but one at severely lowered cost as long as you are one of the Masters. The grail will cover the majority of the ritual and it becomes more of a ritual in the historical sense, something ceremonial, than a magic workings. They even comment how you could use the cheapest most random materials for it to perform the ritual, though using more important materials might affect servant stats. So really this is a "one time plot" ritual that you get a "Plot Rebate" on the complexity and power for the ritual. To the point that even bad excuses for magic users can pull it off on the fly. Of course there are also examples of better magic users messing it up a little bit(Archer and Rin).

That's how we're doing it in my game as well to a degree. My GM hasn't commented on it, but they are going to have my PC's new boss give them a powerful artifact for a Thaumaturgic ritual to summon themselves a servant as part of the benefits of their new station. The mechanical benefit hasn't been laid out yet, but basically it will allow the ritual to happen and with mostly a guarantee of no errors, as long as they don't mess up the ritual itself. Otherwise, my GM has said there's no guarantee on loyalty for summoned minions and it's a huge magic cost to try it. Even following the summoned houserules we found on these forums that would normally allow it.

The whole Servant thing doesn't translate well from what I've seen. Yes, the Grail tends to do the heavy lifting and grants the command spells (thus why I see it as a bit of Sponsored Magic), but the idea of summoning an entity with the equivalent of a powerful Item of Power (Gae Bolg, Excalibur, Enuma Elish), a extraordinary ability (Reality Marbles), or even just a collection of typical powers (Superhuman and above levels of physical powers, flight, water walking, etc) is just tough to gauge in this game from what I saw.

[Lavecki121]

When you say EvoThaum, what exactly do you mean?
"Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation"

Did some editing. You answered your own question now

[Oblyss]

The whole Servant thing doesn't translate well from what I've seen. Yes, the Grail tends to do the heavy lifting and grants the command spells (thus why I see it as a bit of Sponsored Magic), but the idea of summoning an entity with the equivalent of a powerful Item of Power (Gae Bolg, Excalibur, Enuma Elish), a extraordinary ability (Reality Marbles), or even just a collection of typical powers (Superhuman and above levels of physical powers, flight, water walking, etc) is just tough to gauge in this game from what I saw.

These house rules were linked in another thread of yours and I think they fit really well for this.
I know you've seen these before, but I really can't think of anything better than them.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,24744.msg1084269.html#msg1084269

You just write up a character sheet for a servant and the rules cover just about everything for a Type-Moon servant.

The only things not really listed in that are custom powers and Noble Phatasms, which is something I'm working on now. But I'm just gonna set it up as a X cost power since it'll be a few refresh, it doesn't matter if it's not perfectly statted out by the time you summon them.

It's what I'm using for Saber in my game. Then you can just decide that the Holy Grail reduces the cost to a much lower level and such for their first servant if you so choose.