Law Talk

[Hick Jr]

Hmm. Spiral has a point. And the Laws and how they're played are arguably the most divisive thing on the boards. I avoid Law threads like nuclear minefields because it's generally just rehashes of old opinions and arguments.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't really want to let this sink...I guess I'll report it to the mods and ask them to sticky or Resource it.

[Deadmanwalking]

Ooh, stickied. cool.

[Theonlyspiral]

So the Seventh Law.

We have a Character in our game that's hunting a specific outsider and his seven mortal servants. Last night she managed to get some information when one of his servants had a moment of lucidity and contacted her. She tried to start researching her opponents by talking to some people who might be in the know (Ghosts of her ancestors who fought, Athena, ancient library) and I warned that if she pushed any further it would be bordering on a Seventh Law violation. Go deep enough and it would be one for sure. I did tell her there was plenty of information available if she wanted, but she backed off. Now I feel justified in this warning but one of the players approached me after the game and informed me that a couple people were upset by it. Do you guys think this was out of line?

[Deadmanwalking]

Personally? Yes. Assuming you meant giving her the Lawbreaker Power. You need to use magic in order to get Lawbreaker, that's abundantly clear in the rules. 'Mundane' research (including asking people questions) shouldn't get it for you any more than shooting or stabbing someone with a mundane weapon should get you Lawbreaker - First, or performing plastic surgery should get you Lawbreaker - Second.

Now, if you just meant the Wardens might get upset and come after her if they found out, that's another matter and much more reasonable. But...they might still think you meant the Power, so clarify.

[Lavecki121]

I feel she would only have violated the seventh law if she contacted an actual outsider, and even then I think it would only count if the outsider was on the other side if the gates. Any information collected from this side I don't think would violate that law.

[blackstaff67]

I feel she would only have violated the seventh law if she contacted an actual outsider, and even then I think it would only count if the outsider was on the other side if the gates. Any information collected from this side I don't think would violate that law.

Seconded.  When I ask my Storyteller whether or not I have to take a Lawbreaker stunt due to invoking "I have so-snd-so's Grimoire" she said: "No.  The book itself isn't magical though the data is.  What you do with the data using you free will determines a Lawbreaker.  Mind you, the Wardens would NOT be happy discovering you possessed such a book, they'd at least want to confiscate the book and you'd be an object of suspicion for anything bad that happened in your locale, but accessing the book in and of itself won't confer Lawbreaker."

And that's good enough for me.   

[blackstaff67]

So the Seventh Law.

We have a Character in our game that's hunting a specific outsider and his seven mortal servants. Last night she managed to get some information when one of his servants had a moment of lucidity and contacted her. She tried to start researching her opponents by talking to some people who might be in the know (Ghosts of her ancestors who fought, Athena, ancient library) and I warned that if she pushed any further it would be bordering on a Seventh Law violation. Go deep enough and it would be one for sure. I did tell her there was plenty of information available if she wanted, but she backed off. Now I feel justified in this warning but one of the players approached me after the game and informed me that a couple people were upset by it. Do you guys think this was out of line?

I find myself in the unenviable position of having to reverse myself, particularly as the RAW say that it is the only law not necessarily predicated upon casting a spell.  Period.

That said, it's rather difficult for me as a player to accept a Lawbreaking stunt for unintentionally violating this law; for all intents and purposes, simply reading about the bloody things is a violation and can potentially confer Lawbreaker on you, which...golly, would it give a bonus to fighting Outsiders since other Lawbreaker stunts give bonuses when you opt to use magic to violate the law that gave you the stunt?  Again, my emphasis is that no spell need be cast to violate the 7th Law; I guess my question is whether or not continued non-magical research would confer Lawbreaker status and the ensuing stunt and how/what bonus the Lawbreaker stunt would confer.

[Tedronai]

I'm not convinced that merely reading about outsiders should necessarily confer Lawbreaker.
I interpret the language of the Law to forbid seeking knowledge FROM Beyond and not OF Beyond.  Otherwise, anyone simply asking a Warden what an Outsider IS would gain lawbreaker, and warrant execution, let alone the hoop-jumping that would be necessary simply to let the Wardens have the knowledge to enforce this particular Law.

[Theonlyspiral]

In the Specific incident in question, the Character (and Player) know what an outsider is and that knowledge of them is forbidden. Her family has picked some stuff up over the past 20 generations (the time they have been hunting this specific being) but they've mostly been unable to make progress. The character in question lives with a Warden.

Now in terms of knowledge she picks up personally in play that's not an issue. The Wardens don't just blast clean your memory. However in this case the Goddess Athena was offering her a book the council thought destroyed that contained a good deal of detailed information about the outsider and his mortal servants through the years.

Given some expansion does this change what people think?

[blackstaff67]

The exact wording of the law is "Never seek Knowledge and Power from Beyond the Outer Gates."  The 2nd paragraph says that even doing research on the Gates and its inhabitants is verboten and is not conditioned upon casting a spell.

RAW, yeah, she's going into dark gray/black territory.  I'd guess this is a subject the WC treats as "Sorry, you know too much;" rather like the Shadow Hunter folks.  That said, as it ain't about using a spell that warps your soul, it's hard for me to see how doing research will actually confer a Lawbreaker status/stunt upon a PC.  I guess ignorance is a multifaceted thing indeed--"Sorry, BOb, you've read too much about them and now your soul is stained with the knowledge you have."

[Theonlyspiral]

I've always understood it to be the same as Knowledge in Lovecraft. On one hand it makes you better able to fight, but the knowledge itself is inherently tainted and corrupt. The more dangerous you are to the enemy the more compromised your ability to act.

[Lavecki121]

I wouldnt think of it like that for instance in Cold Days

(click to show/hide)

When Harry fought that Outsider in Macks bar. He knew it was an outsider and not a Fomor. The only way he could know that is if he had knowledge of what the outsiders could be/were, Which by your case would make him have the lawbreaker

[Theonlyspiral]

Harry knows basically nothing about them though. He has no substantial information. He knows how they feel to his magical senses, that they are assaulting the gates, that there are 3 walkers and the walkers are knights. What else does Harry know?

[Tarion]

I'm curious as to whether this forum considers my position on the Laws to be fundamentally unfair.  Controversial, I'm fine with, as I see virtually every position on the Laws can (and is) protested, but I'm less cool with reading the Laws in a way that's unfair to spellcasters.

My general position is that if you're regularly throwing around lots of shifts of power aimed at mortals, you're going to be risking Lawbreaking, or at least the Wardens.  As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as absolutely "safe" magic when you're throwing it at humans.  Sleep magic is shown to be potentially lethal at high-powers with Agatha Hagglethorn.  When Harry does it in Turn Coat, he says it's considered "grey magic".  The mind fog is considered a violation in Summer Knight.

So if you're going to consistently throw around masses of power, and then try to narrate it as "and they all took enough damage to be Taken Out, while somehow surviving" I'm probably going to balk and suggest that you're pushing it beyond the "realm of reason".  For me, the "World of Cardboard"* nature of Wizards in the Dresdenverse is a key part of the setting.  It's like Luccio said in Turn Coat:

And for gaining control over others, for gathering great power to oneself, there is no better tool than black magic... Without resorting to black magic, the amount of damage an individual can inflict on mortal society is limited... the Laws of Magic are not about justice... They are about restraining power

That just doesn't fit with Wizards who are able to frequently and safely disable other humans.

And even if you are regularly burning someone close to death and leaving them, or putting people into comas, or anything else of the sort, you're certainly going to have the Wardens sitting on your ass, just waiting for you to push it.  In fact, I don't see them messing around with people who get even close to breaking the Laws.  According to canon they're not too concerned about whether or not you're actually guilty.     
 
*"I feel like I live in a world made of cardboard, always taking constant care not to break something, to break someone. Never allowing myself to lose control even for a moment, or someone could die"