Author Topic: WAG of fate. spoilers!  (Read 18887 times)

Offline Oirthir

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2013, 11:56:29 AM »
Do you one better. here's the whole thingy
Nemesis

by H. P. Lovecraft

Through the ghoul-guarded gateways of slumber,
   Past the wan-mooned abysses of night,
I have lived o'er my lives without number,
   I have sounded all things with my sight;
And I struggle and shriek ere the daybreak, being driven to madness with fright.

I have whirled with the earth at the dawning,
   When the sky was a vaporous flame;
I have seen the dark universe yawning
   Where the black planets roll without aim,
Where they roll in their horror unheeded, without knowledge or lustre or name.

I had drifted o'er seas without ending,
   Under sinister grey-clouded skies,
That the many-forked lightning is rending,
   That resound with hysterical cries;
With the moans of invisible daemons, that out of the green waters rise.

I have plunged like a deer through the arches
   Of the hoary primoridal grove,
Where the oaks feel the presence that marches,
   And stalks on where no spirit dares rove,
And I flee from a thing that surrounds me, and leers through dead branches above.

I have stumbled by cave-ridden mountains
   That rise barren and bleak from the plain,
I have drunk of the fog-foetid fountains
   That ooze down to the marsh and the main;
And in hot cursed tarns I have seen things, I care not to gaze on again.

I have scanned the vast ivy-clad palace,
   I have trod its untenanted hall,
Where the moon rising up from the valleys
   Shows the tapestried things on the wall;
Strange figures discordantly woven, that I cannot endure to recall.

I have peered from the casements in wonder
   At the mouldering meadows around,
At the many-roofed village laid under
   The curse of a grave-girdled ground;
And from rows of white urn-carven marble, I listen intently for sound.

I have haunted the tombs of the ages,
   I have flown on the pinions of fear,
Where the smoke-belching Erebus rages;
   Where the jokulls loom snow-clad and drear:
And in realms where the sun of the desert consumes what it never can cheer.

I was old when the pharaohs first mounted
   The jewel-decked throne by the Nile;
I was old in those epochs uncounted
   When I, and I only, was vile;
And Man, yet untainted and happy, dwelt in bliss on the far Arctic isle.

Oh, great was the sin of my spirit,
   And great is the reach of its doom;
Not the pity of Heaven can cheer it,
   Nor can respite be found in the tomb:
Down the infinite aeons come beating the wings of unmerciful gloom.

Through the ghoul-guarded gateways of slumber,
   Past the wan-mooned abysses of night,
I have lived o'er my lives without number,
   I have sounded all things with my sight;
And I struggle and shriek ere the daybreak, being driven to madness with fright.

 

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2013, 12:11:41 PM »
cool, thanks. that line
Quote
Through the ghoul-guarded gateways of slumber
gives credence to this idea i had that cowl is Nyarlathotep as cowl controls ghouls. and Nyarlathotep is described as
Quote
a "tall, swarthy man" who resembles an ancient Egyptian pharaoh.
keeper of the deathly sleeping great old ones. he who causes people to lose awareness of reality(nemesis infection?) and acts as a intermediary between deities and followers.(madrigal) obviously he can't be an outsider but what about an outside mantle? would explain his interest in defying death as he could then awaken cthulhu from his sleeping dead state.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 12:48:24 PM by wizard nelson »

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2013, 12:19:41 PM »
one thing i wanted to mention about a starborn, lovecraft, outsider reference.
Quote
A Great Old One's influence is often limited to the planet where it dwells. If it is based on a planet outside the solar system, it can only extend its influence to Earth when the star of its planetary system is in the night sky.
could harry have been born under the sign of Cthulhu as i was born a scorpio? :o (probably not Cthulhu, but tomato, uhhh tomato... lol)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 12:21:24 PM by wizard nelson »

Offline elrond50

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 81
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2013, 12:31:19 PM »
Quote
For this, I think you have to look at the philosophical make-up of Nemesis.  It was her job to take entities down a peg.  She was/is retribution for hubris.  I think it's fair to say that the old pantheon as well as a significant number of other long ago Gods/ Goddesses would feel anger towards mortals (as an example) for the ease in which they turned away from them.  There is obvious hubris in that.    In truth, there has even been an active organization trying to assure that is the case ( The True Venatoris).  I don't find it any stretch of the imagination to assume that even though Nemesis might not be at risk of being forgotten in total personally...there aren't quite a few Gods, Goddesses, gods, and goddesses who are approaching the cusp of banishment.  Many more have already faced it.  So, I don't think Nemesis would have to be an "Outsider" at all to perform as is her nature...especially since she probably was well familiar with many of the Gods, Goddesses, gods and goddesses that no longer exist in reality because mortals no longer recognize them personally or historically.

It would also explain how this war with the "Outsiders" has been going on forever.


I've wondered about the loss of worship and the Oblivion aspects for a bit. Maeve brought up Atlantis which, depending on the legends, went under the waters 12,000 years ago. So the fae remember the lost city but the Archive doesn't acknowledge their memories as part of the aspect of mortal knowledge. But what happens if solid proof of Atlantis popped up at sites like Gobekli Tepe or Nabta Playa?  Does that restore erased aspects of the Archive?

On the worship front, I hold that people placing tattoos of ancient symbols counts towards energy of that pantheon. All those ankhs on people could be fueling an Egyptian pantheon revival. Isis may be returning.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 04:25:59 PM by elrond50 »
Speak the truth. That is always much easier, and its often the most powerful argument. - Bene Gesserit Axiom

Offline GrandPanjandrum

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 922
  • I'm schizophrenic.No you're not.Yes he is. Shutup
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2013, 03:25:33 PM »
Exploring the possibility that the "Outsiders" are discarded minor deities, spirits, and regional/local entities of worship that have been cast out of reality due to a lack of any sort of recognition, one could extrapolate that the entities held on Demonreach are truly the most dangerous...and had they been cast out of reality to the plain of "empty night" where the war is going on, the "Outsiders" would be much stronger...and potentially, too strong.  Instead of a hive mentality, they would have leaders, generals, and improved strategy.  So, those held on Demonreach had to be kept separate.

Does that make any sense?

Disclaimer:  Ate lead paint chips on a regular basis as a child.  Posts reflect degenerative loss of mental acuity.

Online Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24358
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2013, 03:40:14 PM »
Exploring the possibility that the "Outsiders" are discarded minor deities, spirits, and regional/local entities of worship that have been cast out of reality due to a lack of any sort of recognition, one could extrapolate that the entities held on Demonreach are truly the most dangerous...and had they been cast out of reality to the plain of "empty night" where the war is going on, the "Outsiders" would be much stronger...and potentially, too strong.  Instead of a hive mentality, they would have leaders, generals, and improved strategy.  So, those held on Demonreach had to be kept separate.

Does that make any sense?
  I see Outsiders owning the universe before the big bang happened, lots of of nice empty night.  Then God and His buddies, the other various gods and goddesses, archangels, angels etc, butted in and created the heavens, the earth, planets, stars, galaxies, etc, then mucking it up further with all matter of life forms...  All the Outsiders want, is their playground back, things were so much more simple then...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 03:42:38 PM by Mira »

Offline GrandPanjandrum

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 922
  • I'm schizophrenic.No you're not.Yes he is. Shutup
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2013, 03:55:22 PM »
  I see Outsiders owning the universe before the big bang happened, lots of of nice empty night.  Then God and His buddies, the other various gods and goddesses, archangels, angels etc, butted in and created the heavens, the earth, planets, stars, galaxies, etc, then mucking it up further with all matter of life forms...  All the Outsiders want, is their playground back, things were so much more simple then...

You may be correct.  Only "The Butcher" knows.   ;D   But, if I'm right, it would explain how Merlin was able to trap the Major Gods and significantly strong entities.  Jim gave us an object lesson in Summer Knight.   A mantle of a fallen God/entity/Lady is going to go to its nearest potential vessel (just like Aurora's went to Lily, Maeve's went to Molly, and Lily's went to Sarissa).  All Merlin had to do was figure a way to create a vessel and store it on Demonreach.  When the God/Goddess/Major Bad news baddy  is finally forgotten in total by mortals, their mantle travels to Demonreach and is imprisoned.  The same would hold true for entities killed in battle  (for example, Perseus killed the Kraken with Medusa's head).  The Kraken's mantle of power went to the nearest vessel and Demonreach held the only such vessel in reality.  Hence, it was imprisoned.

PS:  If you have to build a vessel to hold a mantle of power...having Soulfire (power of creation) isn't going to hurt your chances.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 03:57:57 PM by GrandPanjandrum »
Disclaimer:  Ate lead paint chips on a regular basis as a child.  Posts reflect degenerative loss of mental acuity.

Offline jb2point0

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2013, 10:02:33 PM »
  I see Outsiders owning the universe before the big bang happened, lots of of nice empty night.  Then God and His buddies, the other various gods and goddesses, archangels, angels etc, butted in and created the heavens, the earth, planets, stars, galaxies, etc, then mucking it up further with all matter of life forms...  All the Outsiders want, is their playground back, things were so much more simple then...

Isn't there a WOJ about the outsiders being the Old Ones and their minions? As well as a comment on when/what they ruled?
Sharing Jim Butcher's initials since 1987.

HHWBeh
HHWBef
HWGTW500MTHGTW500MJTBTHWW1000MTFDAYD

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2013, 10:30:52 PM »
Isn't there a WOJ about the outsiders being the Old Ones and their minions? As well as a comment on when/what they ruled?

Not WoJ, but a few comments throughout the series. Do you want me to go fetch the comments?
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2013, 03:41:11 AM »
Not WoJ, but a few comments throughout the series. Do you want me to go fetch the comments?
sure if your up to it, please.

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2013, 03:58:25 AM »
sure if your up to it, please.

Quote from: Dead Beat Chapter 31
Outsiders, though, were so rarely spoken of that they were all but a rumor. I wasn't really clear on all of the details, but the Outsiders had been the servants and foot soldiers of the Old Ones, an ancient race of demons or gods who had once ruled the mortal world, but who had apparently been cast out and locked away from our reality.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2013, 04:06:09 AM »

mmm well i'd really like to know the specifics of this war and why/how it started. who would be nice too, though i'd guess the dragons did the casting unless there is an unrevealed older faction.

Offline TheCuriousFan

  • Special Collections Division
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 16609
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2013, 04:13:22 AM »
mmm well i'd really like to know the specifics of this war and why/how it started. who would be nice too, though i'd guess the dragons did the casting unless there is an unrevealed older faction.

Probably not going to find that out until later in the series.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

If you want me to type up a book quote or find a WoJ quote, send me a PM.

Rest in peace mdodd.

Offline OZ

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4129
  • Great and Terrible
    • View Profile
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2013, 04:14:46 AM »
I just discovered this thread. I actually speculated about Nemesis being the third Fate here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35014.msg1689507.html#msg1689507 but I didn't put anywhere near the research into it that you did. Nicely done WN.

I loved the Lovecraft poem.
How do you know you have a good book?  It's 3am and you think "Just one more chapter!"

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: WAG of fate. spoilers!
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2013, 05:29:17 AM »
I just discovered this thread. I actually speculated about Nemesis being the third Fate here: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35014.msg1689507.html#msg1689507 but I didn't put anywhere near the research into it that you did. Nicely done WN.

I loved the Lovecraft poem.
thanks ;D i've discovered if i'm going to wag something i'd better research it so its easier for others digest my out on a logical limb idea's. plus its easier to keep them from being picked apart if i've already thought out all the loopholes and covered them.

ms duck? lovecraft is your forte' any comments?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 05:34:12 AM by wizard nelson »