Mechanics Question About Thaumaturgy and Skill Boosts

[Auspice]

The book seems a little vague about skill boosts with Thaumaturgy.  There is some mention on OW p.282 concerning this topic but nothing solid.  I'm trying to get the exact rules down before I make any house rules so any specific references from the book or an administrator (posted AFTER the final version was released) would be very much appreciated.

Let me give some examples of possible Thaumaturgical uses that I'm not sure would work:

(Assume a Lore of 5 for these)
Boots of Speed (Enchanted Item): +4 to Athletics 2x per session
      Would this have to be narrowed to a specific specialization like running or initiative?  How much of a bonus would be required before a consequence would be taken?  Would it be something like more than double the original skill?

Potion of Mightiness: +4 to Might for 2 exchanges
      Might is where I got the original idea of being able to add in skills because of the Biomancy section in OW p.284.  There it talks about boosting strength, and just boosting lifting without it boosting wrestling seems silly to me.  Making a potion that gives you a quick burst of Might seems sound, but that has implications on other Thaumaturgy aspects.  As for a mild consequence, I can imagine inserting something like "Sore Back" if the character does something extreme, but is there a specific place where the line is drawn or do I come up with that as the GM?
      Random side note, I enjoy thinking of somebody who took this potion, lifted a car, and forgot to put it down before the potion wore off.

Finally, this bleeds into the really broken concept that I would outlaw as a GM but might be sound as rules go...

Potion of Understanding (First): Lore +5 for one exchange
      A wizard can drink this and take a mild consequence to make a new potion...
Potion of Understanding (Second): Lore +10 for one exchange
      Even if I make the consequence a moderate one this time, it's worth it.  The player can always try to heal himself with a healing spell later.  Meanwhile, the wizard makes an enchanted item based on a +10 Lore.


Is there a key factor I'm missing in all of this?

[Haru]

A boost like that, a flat bonus to a skill, is not really something the system supports. There are two ways to do a boost, but none of them is a flat bonus.

1. Skill Replacement
Thaumaturgy can do "Skill replacement rituals". Those can be done to achieve anything you could do with a regular skill, but they do it with magic. Sometimes the spell can reduce the time it takes, or it can help you do something which would technically be possible, but very hard to do in a mundane fashion. A "spider walk" potion, for example, that replaces your athletics skill with the potion's power for the attempt to climb a wall.

2. Aspects/Maneuvers
Another thing you can do would be maneuvers. A maneuver spell can place an aspect, that can be tagged for either a +2 on your roll or a reroll. A maneuver needs 3 shifts of power to be placed, and thaumaturgy can place multiple aspects at once, each for 3 shifts. These aspects will be fragile, that means they go away after they've been tagged. If you spend 4 shifts on a maneuver in a spell, it will be sticky, so you can invoke it multiple times if you spend fate points.

2.b
Another way you could go is a subset of this. Instead of spending your free tags on a +2 or a reroll, you could decide to use them for a temporary upgrade. Usually, you'll need a bit more shifts for that, at least 5 to take yourself out and then one aspect for one refresh worth of powers. So your "boots of speed" would be 11 shifts, but using it would grant you "inhuman speed" for the duration of one scene. There was a thread not too long ago that elaborated on this further:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36195.0.html

[Auspice]

Woah, I never even thought of gaining temporary powers.  I'm still looking through the posts now (including the link to yet another useful post).

Thanks!

What about this section on p.284...
[Biomancy can also be used for shortterm
supercharging. Look to the early part of
“Transportation and Worldwalking” on page 282
for some possible applications (e.g., boosted
running speed, etc.). Biomantic rituals, items,
and potions can be used to boost strength, speed,
perception, and other functions of biology—
provided that the body being boosted can withstand
the stresses of such an effort. Just because
muscles have been supercharged to lift a small
car doesn’t mean they’re built to withstand the
damage that would do; inflicting consequences
on the beneficiary to boost spell effectiveness is
not uncommon (Torn Muscle Tissue, etc.).]

Are you saying that when it talks about strength potions is means you could make a Might:5 potion (not +5) and still have to take a negative consequence for it?

[Haru]

When you are doing a spell, you can take consequences to boost the spells power by as many shifts as the consequence is worth. Mild is 2 shifts, medium is 4 shifts, severe is 6 shifts. Since thaumaturgy often runs into the problem that you don't have enough shifts to cover the spells complexity, it is a common practice to spend consequences in order to boost the complexity, since it fits pretty well, thematically. For example, you want do a thaumaturgy spell that grants you inhuman strength, and you have a lore of 5. You'll need 5 shifts to take yourself out (less with low endurance), and you need 2 aspects at 3 shifts. That's 11 shifts. 5 of those are covered by your lore of 5. Then you take the hair of an ox, to channel its proverbial strength, which are 2 shifts towards your goal. Since you are pressed for time, you make up the missing 4 shifts by taking the medium consequence of "Torn Muscle Tissue". You'll be all kinds of strong, but your body isn't used to that strength, so it will hurt like hell in the morning.

If you only wanted to do a spell that replaces your might skill for one application, that is usually not a problem. A 5 shift effect is most often covered by your lore skill already, there is no need to take consequences to boost the spell. Now if you want to go for a 10 shift replacement spell, that might be another story altogether, and you might be pressed to take that consequence again. Of course, you could use other ingredients (aspects) to boost the spell, instead of consequences. Ground up ants for example, an animal that can carry multiple times it's own weight, could be used in the spell, to offset the negative effects of a strength too big for a human body. In the end, it's all about the story of the spell.

[Auspice]

Yet again, this helps a lot.  I think I finally get it, but tell me if this next example shows I'm still missing an important factor.

When it comes to the Lore Potion it looks like there is still a loophole that I would simply have to forbid as a GM.  Tell me if I'm wrong...

Somebody with Lore:5, a specialization in potions, and a focus item that gives +1 to potion-making can make a Lore:7 potion.  You can drink it to be able to make a Lore:9 potion, etc.

Am I missing a factor?

[Haru]

I would generally not allow someone to boost a knowledge skill, or the knowledge application of a skill, which this clearly is. So I would allow you to create a lore potion to sense ghosts or something similar, but not a lore potion that increases your arcane knowledge on creating potions.

At the same time, I would not allow you to create a scholarship potion that increases your knowledge of for example medicine, but I would allow you to create a potion that replaces the first aid part of scholarship with a spell effect. An emergency first aid potion, if you will.

[Auspice]

For example, you want do a thaumaturgy spell that grants you inhuman strength, and you have a lore of 5. You'll need 5 shifts to take yourself out (less with low endurance), and you need 2 aspects at 3 shifts. That's 11 shifts. 5 of those are covered by your lore of 5. Then you take the hair of an ox, to channel its proverbial strength, which are 2 shifts towards your goal. Since you are pressed for time, you make up the missing 4 shifts by taking the medium consequence of "Torn Muscle Tissue". You'll be all kinds of strong, but your body isn't used to that strength, so it will hurt like hell in the morning.

I read the post you originally linked which led to yet to another which led to a third that talked about Shapeshifting.  Unfortunately, I am still having issues understanding based on some acronyms and other terms I don't understand readily so I have a few questions on this.

1) I've been trying to find out how much stress you need from "Taken Out."  Based on my understanding of concessions needing at least a moderate consequence, my guess is the amount required is the number of stress boxes plus three (to be just barely better than a mild).  Is this correct?

2) I don't understand where you got two aspects at three shifts.  I read the temporary powers rules and can kind of deduce that somehow this is equal to the two fate points needed to be spent for a temporary cost two power, but where does the three come from?  If you could break down your work as if you're talking to a 10-year-old (no offense to you 10-year-olds out there!) I would appreciate it.

I understand the process of trying to reach the complexity, it's DETERMINING the complexity that I'm a little hazy on.

If you only wanted to do a spell that replaces your might skill for one application, that is usually not a problem. A 5 shift effect is most often covered by your lore skill already, there is no need to take consequences to boost the spell. Now if you want to go for a 10 shift replacement spell, that might be another story altogether, and you might be pressed to take that consequence again. Of course, you could use other ingredients (aspects) to boost the spell, instead of consequences. Ground up ants for example, an animal that can carry multiple times it's own weight, could be used in the spell, to offset the negative effects of a strength too big for a human body. In the end, it's all about the story of the spell.

I thought whenever you did enchantments you didn't roll but you simply had a maximum of your Lore plus foci plus specializations, and potions were similar except you could compel aspects upon use to bump them up.  Based on what you said here it seems like you can make enchantments more powerful by taking consequences and spending Fate points upon creation.  Did I misinterpret this?

[Haru]

I read the post you originally linked which led to yet to another which led to a third that talked about Shapeshifting.  Unfortunately, I am still having issues understanding based on some acronyms and other terms I don't understand readily so I have a few questions on this.

I don't think we ever made an acronyms list, so I guess it's best to just ask them here, so we can clarify.

1) I've been trying to find out how much stress you need from "Taken Out."  Based on my understanding of concessions needing at least a moderate consequence, my guess is the amount required is the number of stress boxes plus three (to be just barely better than a mild).  Is this correct?

Well, the thing is, you are not aiming for a concession, you are aiming to take a target out and dictate the taken out result. Lucky enough, you are the target yourself, so you are in all likelyhood not blowing your consequences on resisting your own spell. That means, that you only need 1 more shift than you can take on your stress track, which is 4 at the most, less with low endurance, so you need at the most 5 shifts to take yourself (or a willing target) out.

2) I don't understand where you got two aspects at three shifts.  I read the temporary powers rules and can kind of deduce that somehow this is equal to the two fate points needed to be spent for a temporary cost two power, but where does the three come from?  If you could break down your work as if you're talking to a 10-year-old (no offense to you 10-year-olds out there!) I would appreciate it.

Ah, that's on page 252, where it talks about spell maneuvers. The minimum shift requirement for an aspect done by a spell is 3. Granted, that's for evocation, but it kind of follows the same rules, when it comes to evocation (or at least that seems to be a common conception).
The two tags are indeed a replacement for the two fate points you need for the temporary power.

I understand the process of trying to reach the complexity, it's DETERMINING the complexity that I'm a little hazy on.

I thought whenever you did enchantments you didn't roll but you simply had a maximum of your Lore plus foci plus specializations, and potions were similar except you could compel aspects upon use to bump them up.  Based on what you said here it seems like you can make enchantments more powerful by taking consequences and spending Fate points upon creation.  Did I misinterpret this?

Yes, slightly. You've got the enchanted items and potion part down, and those are seldom strong enough to grant temporary powers (unless maybe you have a master crafter). Enchanted items can generally carry all the spells you could do via evocation or thaumaturgy, but they have a limited capacity, when it comes to shifts of power. As above, the "inhuman strength potion" requires 11 shifts of power, which is not too easy to come by for enchanted items. Potions can be boosted with aspects, so that might work, but you mostly do this for actual thaumaturgic rituals. In game, if your GM is cool with it, you can create an item, that will grant you "inhuman strength", but it is not one of your enchanted items. The enchanted items are simply those, that are part of your usual toolkit. Like Harry's shield bracelet or blasting rod, for example. Those enchanted items should probably be either skill replacement or maneuver spells.
With a 6 shift enchanted item, you could place 2 aspects like "Bull's Strength" on yourself and tag them when you need the strength to boost your rolls. That's usually the best way for most conflicts.

This is a bit more than you asked for, but bear with me. Fate can do a lot, but sometimes through a lot of different approaches.

If you want to make a character that uses potions to enhance himself regularly, you might want to look into something a little different:
Instead of taking the power temporarily, you take them permanently, but not permanently accessible. That's what the "Human Form" power is for, like werewolves and such have. You just say, that your character, a crazy alchemist, found a way to enhance his body with his potions. He is not always strong or fast, but when he drinks his potion, his body changes and he can get access to those powers. On paper, it would look something like this:

Human Form [+1]
affecting:
 Inhuman Speed [-2]
 Inhuman Strength [-2]
Total: -3

This would allow you to have a few potions at hand that will let you access those powers. Those potions would not count into the enchanted item slots, they would just be the narrative justification for your character to access his powers. If someone were to take away his potions, he'd need to get them back or make more, in order to access the powers again.
Of course, this is expensive, refresh wise, so you'll probably have to cut down on other powers. Evocation, for example, since an alchemist is all about the potions, not the fireballs.

You could even have another character that uses those potions, while your character is supplying him with them. Or your character is the user himself, and the alchemist is an NPC, a friend of your characters. Lot's of possibilities.

[Deadmanwalking]

What Haru suggests is an excellent idea. Actually, if it requires potions or some other external condition, or significant time and effort, you can almost certainly get the +2 version of Human Form out of it, just for the record.

[Haru]

What Haru suggests is an excellent idea. Actually, if it requires potions or some other external condition, or significant time and effort, you can almost certainly get the +2 version of Human Form out of it, just for the record.

That'd be something like he hulk, in my eyes, where you can't voluntarily access your powers. But I agree, the "take away" part the potions should be worth more here. Maybe Human form + Item of Power? I'd probably do something along those lines, yes. Sanctaphrax has a power called "Limitation" on the custom power list, that should also do the trick.

[Deadmanwalking]

That'd be something like he hulk, in my eyes, where you can't voluntarily access your powers. But I agree, the "take away" part the potions should be worth more here. Maybe Human form + Item of Power? I'd probably do something along those lines, yes. Sanctaphrax has a power called "Limitation" on the custom power list, that should also do the trick.

Re-read Human Form, the +2 is for any condition that makes using it hard, due to the 'rare' part. Look at Lycanthropes. Needing a 15 minute ritual or your special formula is every bit as valid a rare condition as a certain time of day or month. It's easier to access, but also easier to take away from you. Item of Power is for a specific Item, not something ala Dr. Jekyll's potion that only works on him and he can whip up anywhere where there's a lab.

And yeah, obviously if using Limitation, this is one of those. 

Feeding Dependency (Magical Energy) is also another cool thing to tack on to physical powers representing long-term spells, and Feeding Dependency (Potion) would be another (very different) way to do the alchemist suggestion...

[Sanctaphrax]

Somebody with Lore:5, a specialization in potions, and a focus item that gives +1 to potion-making can make a Lore:7 potion.  You can drink it to be able to make a Lore:9 potion, etc.

Am I missing a factor?

You are missing a factor.

An X-shift potion gives you an X-shift effect, period. A single skill roll of X would be a good example of an X-shift effect. You don't get to add any bonuses to that roll, because you aren't actually using your stats. You're using a canned effect.

That'd be something like he hulk, in my eyes, where you can't voluntarily access your powers. But I agree, the "take away" part the potions should be worth more here. Maybe Human form + Item of Power? I'd probably do something along those lines, yes. Sanctaphrax has a power called "Limitation" on the custom power list, that should also do the trick.

Point of order: Limitation isn't all mine.

Either it or Human Form would work fine. Limitation is a bit more complicated and varies in cost from game to game, but it fixes the issue where attaching three Refinements to "I need a 15-minute ritual" gives the same rebate as attaching the whole Wizard Template and three Refinements to "I need to sacrifice a bus full of orphans to Yog-Sothoth on the winter solstice".

Feeding Dependency (Magical Energy) is also another cool thing to tack on to physical powers representing long-term spells, and Feeding Dependency (Potion) would be another (very different) way to do the alchemist suggestion...

Before using Feeding Dependency, though, you should make sure your group agrees about how it works. It has multiple valid readings.

Instead of spending your free tags on a +2 or a reroll, you could decide to use them for a temporary upgrade.

FWIW, I wouldn't allow that. I'd make you use real FP.

[Auspice]

This board is invaluable.  I thought this system was really easy when first learning it, but the magic system ended up being a lot more difficult (as magic tends to be).  Thanks everybody!

This is a bit more than you asked for, but bear with me. Fate can do a lot, but sometimes through a lot of different approaches.

I'm glad you did.  Thanks!

[Wolfhound]

Well, the thing is, you are not aiming for a concession, you are aiming to take a target out and dictate the taken out result. Lucky enough, you are the target yourself, so you are in all likelyhood not blowing your consequences on resisting your own spell. That means, that you only need 1 more shift than you can take on your stress track, which is 4 at the most, less with low endurance, so you need at the most 5 shifts to take yourself (or a willing target) out.
Ah, that's on page 252, where it talks about spell maneuvers. The minimum shift requirement for an aspect done by a spell is 3. Granted, that's for evocation, but it kind of follows the same rules, when it comes to evocation (or at least that seems to be a common conception).

So, please don't rake me over the coals for thread necromancy, I really, really wanted to keep this on this thread for context purposes.

I have massaged this mentally for a while now, flipping back and forth in the book ... and I've come to the conclusion that I must have missed something major. Can someone direct me to, in the book, where it shows that if a character wants to perform something on himself/herself, the .. eh... for lack of a better term "base complexity" needs to be at least enough to "take himself out" ?

(I'm not trying to be a jerk/argue/or anything - please read this reply as a sincere, honest attempt to find the place in the rules where I've missed something - which I freely admit I do often  )

[Haru]

I have massaged this mentally for a while now, flipping back and forth in the book ... and I've come to the conclusion that I must have missed something major. Can someone direct me to, in the book, where it shows that if a character wants to perform something on himself/herself, the .. eh... for lack of a better term "base complexity" needs to be at least enough to "take himself out" ?

I'm not sure if it is found in the book, it might be from a comment by Fred that is just being taken for granted by now. If I find something, I'll link it later.

The idea behind this is, that if you take someone out in a conflict, then you get to dictate the taken out result. This result has to be sort of justified by the way the character has been taken out, too. So if you were to transform someone else, you would do a thaumaturgy attack powerful enough to take him out, even if he rolled lucky and filled all his consequences. And once the character is taken out, you can dictate the taken out result, in this case the transformation.


If you do it on yourself, you don't have to take a consequence, since you want the taken out result to occur. Then you can forfeit the defense roll, so you don't have to account for that as well. But you would have to take stress, and the stress track is at most 4 shifts long (usually), so 5 shifts will surely take you out and get you into a position to be transformed.