Coming to Terms With Summoning and Binding

[Crion]

One thing to note: anyone taken a look at Summoning in the Magic System Toolkit for Fate Core? It appears to be rather "easy," so to speak, but it might be serviceable.

Anyone have a thought on it?

[Sanctaphrax]

The big problem with the canon rules is that there's barely any connection between the usefulness of your summon and how hard it is to summon.

I mean, summoning a powerful monster ought to be harder than summoning a weak one. Right?

Also they're complex and clunky. But that's secondary.

PS: The books make summoning look easy for the people who use it, but that doesn't mean it should be easy for everyone with Thaumaturgy. There must be a reason that Harry doesn't just send conjured beasts to take care of everything. It would be lame if he did that.

[Deadmanwalking]

The big problem with the canon rules is that there's barely any connection between the usefulness of your summon and how hard it is to summon.

There's some connection if your GM's on the ball. Powerful critters have more Consequences to use to resist things, and higher Conviction scores. The latter is admittedly a major flaw in the system, as OW doesn't bear that out...but I personally consider that a flaw in the monster statting, not the summoning rules.

I mean, summoning a powerful monster ought to be harder than summoning a weak one. Right?

Depends. summoning a named character who's badass in some fashion should be harder than summoning a generic minion, though, yeah.

Also they're complex and clunky. But that's secondary.

This is legit, but see below.

PS: The books make summoning look easy for the people who use it, but that doesn't mean it should be easy for everyone with Thaumaturgy. There must be a reason that Harry doesn't just send conjured beasts to take care of everything. It would be lame if he did that.

I've always thought this is part of why they're complex and clunky...either you need to pay a lot for such favors, or performing such spells is an enormously long and painstaking process.

[Sanctaphrax]

There's some connection if your GM's on the ball. Powerful critters have more Consequences to use to resist things, and higher Conviction scores. The latter is admittedly a major flaw in the system, as OW doesn't bear that out...but I personally consider that a flaw in the monster statting, not the summoning rules.

Not every powerful creature will be mentally tough. The stats of every single powerful being should not be revised around the possibility that somebody will summon them.

Those summoning rules make the existence of mentally weak monsters that are good at fighting or some other useful task into a balance problem.

Besides, Superb Conviction only adds like 9 to the Complexity of a take-out summon. 9 is not a large enough difference between the weakest of the weak and something really strong.

You can try to hack this by not having weak creatures take all possible consequences, but that has other issues. For instance, really powerful creatures are now way too easy to summon.

I've always thought this is part of why they're complex and clunky...either you need to pay a lot for such favors, or performing such spells is an enormously long and painstaking process.

Minion-making is actually pretty easy for real summoners like Binder and Grevane. The rules should accommodate that.

And even if they won't, clunkiness is never a good thing. Clunkiness annoys players, not characters.

[Aminar]

One thing to note: anyone taken a look at Summoning in the Magic System Toolkit for Fate Core? It appears to be rather "easy," so to speak, but it might be serviceable.

Anyone have a thought on it?

Definitley a set of rules I'll be reworking fro Dresden.  They don't allow for Binder as of yet, but I have some ideas on that.  What I wish is that the Wispfighting rules worked on something else other than other wisps.  Because Pokemon.

[Locnil]

One thing to note: anyone taken a look at Summoning in the Magic System Toolkit for Fate Core? It appears to be rather "easy," so to speak, but it might be serviceable.

Anyone have a thought on it?

It's already out? Where can I get it?

[Aminar]

It's already out? Where can I get it?

It was part of one of the Kickstarter previews. 
Basically it gave access to a few specific low level ranks of summons with a rating between 1 and 4.  The summoner can have up to their Summoning score in those summons.  There was an enhanced set of rules for named beings where a deal was struck.
Converting it to Dresden it would be
Ritual-Summoning.
You could summon up to your conviction score worth of total summons.  They can be any element.
Sponsored Magic-Your Element Here-Summoning.  -1

Now, in fatecore refresh amounts are much smaller, all a summoner needs to do is take the appropriate spell instead of taking ritual.  This is less appropriate for Dresden where there are pre-existing "Caster Skills"

I'm unsure if posting the abilities of each level of summon are appropriate here, as they are not yet open to the general public and you missed the kickstarter(I think.)

[Crion]

It was part of one of the Kickstarter previews. 
Basically it gave access to a few specific low level ranks of summons with a rating between 1 and 4.  The summoner can have up to their Summoning score in those summons.  There was an enhanced set of rules for named beings where a deal was struck.
Converting it to Dresden it would be
Ritual-Summoning.
You could summon up to your conviction score worth of total summons.  They can be any element.
Sponsored Magic-Your Element Here-Summoning.  -1

Now, in fatecore refresh amounts are much smaller, all a summoner needs to do is take the appropriate spell instead of taking ritual.  This is less appropriate for Dresden where there are pre-existing "Caster Skills"

I'm unsure if posting the abilities of each level of summon are appropriate here, as they are not yet open to the general public and you missed the kickstarter(I think.)

Actually, I was looking over the Refresh Values of the stuff in Fate Core, and realized that the refresh ratings give you the ONE element/ritual without the item slots (basically, sans Refinement), so the numbers actually make sense.

The summoning rules basically dictate that the highest skill the summoned being has was your difficulty to summon the entity if I remember correctly. It, of course, did not factor in powers and whatnot, and makes the summoning of a "weak" creature very easy, which could work for Binder's goons (as they were one-shotted with maybe a skill rating of +1 or even +2, relying on sheer numbers to succeed).

I have two problems with these rules: the first is that it can make it very easy to summon a one-trick pony, but it also makes said one-trick pony a viable tool for a short period of time. The second makes it difficult to scale a more powerful entity, as it doesn't include the powers loadout.

Perhaps the difficulty for a short-term summoning should be Highest Skill + Refresh of Powers? While it may not be as difficult as "taking out" the target, it does leave leeway for increased diffficulties for longer tracks of time, specific commands, etc.

One of the reasons I'm even considering this: I'm running a game at an anime convention, and one of the other GMs mentioned I should watch a few newer series, one of them being Fate/Zero. I'm now trying to determine how to get one of the Servants summoned to work within this game without making the servant a second PC.

[Aminar]

It really lacks the numbers for Binder's goons.  WHich is unfortunate.  And I really would have liked the pokemonish system to be a little more useful...

[Oblyss]

Actually, I was looking over the Refresh Values of the stuff in Fate Core, and realized that the refresh ratings give you the ONE element/ritual without the item slots (basically, sans Refinement), so the numbers actually make sense.

The summoning rules basically dictate that the highest skill the summoned being has was your difficulty to summon the entity if I remember correctly. It, of course, did not factor in powers and whatnot, and makes the summoning of a "weak" creature very easy, which could work for Binder's goons (as they were one-shotted with maybe a skill rating of +1 or even +2, relying on sheer numbers to succeed).

I have two problems with these rules: the first is that it can make it very easy to summon a one-trick pony, but it also makes said one-trick pony a viable tool for a short period of time. The second makes it difficult to scale a more powerful entity, as it doesn't include the powers loadout.

Perhaps the difficulty for a short-term summoning should be Highest Skill + Refresh of Powers? While it may not be as difficult as "taking out" the target, it does leave leeway for increased diffficulties for longer tracks of time, specific commands, etc.

One of the reasons I'm even considering this: I'm running a game at an anime convention, and one of the other GMs mentioned I should watch a few newer series, one of them being Fate/Zero. I'm now trying to determine how to get one of the Servants summoned to work within this game without making the servant a second PC.

That's actually a really fun idea. I was already looking at making a summoned minion follower based on those house rules that were linked. That sort of thing would be neat to go with my character's new direction. I think the house rules linked fit just fine for it, as Servants are supposed to require a lot of power to summon them. Normally the load is being carried by the Holy Grail instead of the Master if I remember correctly.