Sponsored Magic from a Location: Eldritch Calgary Players Stay Out!

[Sanctaphrax]

No, it doesn't quite work like that. A 4 Refresh Power is usually a little more than twice as good as a 2 Refresh one.

And Evocation isn't half of Sponsored Magic's effect...Sponsored Magic generally gives Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Evothaum, and an extra benefit worth around 1 Refresh.

[Deadmanwalking]

No, it doesn't quite work like that. A 4 Refresh Power is usually a little more than twice as good as a 2 Refresh one.

That's debatable.

And Evocation isn't half of Sponsored Magic's effect...Sponsored Magic generally gives Evocation, Thaumaturgy, Evothaum, and an extra benefit worth around 1 Refresh.

Uh...check p. 287 of YS, pricing of Sponsored Magic is explicitly the pricing for Channeling + Ritual, with all the extras (which there certainly are) paid for by the fact that you need your Sponsor's support on whatever you're doing for it to work at all.

[Sanctaphrax]

If it's a debate, then it's the kind where one side is clearly right.

And yes, I know the book says it's equivalent to taking Channelling and Ritual for 2 Refresh each. But that isn't true, because that isn't how Sponsored Magic actually works. The book contradicts itself. It happens.

The agenda, incidentally, consists of Compels and doesn't affect balance.

[Deadmanwalking]

If it's a debate, then it's the kind where one side is clearly right.

Uh...check, say, Inhuman vs. Supernatural Toughness. That's clearly a direct addition.

And yes, I know the book says it's equivalent to taking Channelling and Ritual for 2 Refresh each. But that isn't true, because that isn't how Sponsored Magic actually works. The book contradicts itself. It happens.

No, it really doesn't. It says that Channeling and Ritual are each half of it's cost, which is consistent and makes sense, the additional bonuses are paid for by it's nature as...not entirely under the player's control.

The agenda, incidentally, consists of Compels and doesn't affect balance.

Not entirely it doesn't. Check p. 287 once again, you cannot even cast spells with it that don't align with it's sponsor's agenda, making entire realms of spellcasting off-limits. It's that kind of limitation that pays for it's assorted bonuses. There's also Sponsor Debt...but that's a different thing entirely.

[Sanctaphrax]

4 extra stress boxes is more than twice as good as 2. That's why stunts have stacking limitations.

And my reading of that text is that the agenda limits of Sponsored Magic are like the Purpose of a Sword of the Cross. My reading might be biased by the broken-ness of the alternative, I suppose.

[Deadmanwalking]

4 extra stress boxes is more than twice as good as 2. That's why stunts have stacking limitations.

Eh. Sometimes. What about the difference in Recovery powers, then? That stacks a lot less directly.

And my reading of that text is that the agenda limits of Sponsored Magic are like the Purpose of a Sword of the Cross. My reading might be biased by the broken-ness of the alternative, I suppose.

How so? The agendas are fairly broad and the magic can thus be used pretty broadly...but not for everything. Any other reading really unbalances things in favor of Sponsored Magic...which hardly needs the help.

[Sanctaphrax]

I've found Sponsored Magic pretty balanced by my reading, actually. Certainly more balanced than it would be with a restriction that exists for some characters and not for others.

The standard Ritual/Channelling limitations have generally been enough.

It's true that it's better than Ritual + Channelling, but Ritual and Channelling are suboptimal anyway compared to full spellcasting.

And in my experience Mythic Recovery really is that good. Being able to ignore Severe consequences is incredible.

[Theonlyspiral]

So it either costs 3 with a +1 Discount for Thaumaturgy, or it costs 2 with a +1 Discount for Thaumaturgy? But overall there is no debate that it works fine as a sponsored magic?

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, it's indisputably available. Cost's the argument.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yep.

DMW is saying it should cost the same as Ritual because the evothaum and the free specialization bonuses that appear to stack with normal specializations are balanced out by the fact that you'll be unable to use it sometimes.

I'm saying that it should cost more than Ritual because the agenda limitations of this magic are Compels, and Compels are not a bad thing to get so they can't balance anything out.

If you go with DMW's argument you should think of ways for the agenda could prevent the magic from being available.

If you go with mine you should never ever let the agenda do anything mechanical without using the Aspect mechanics.

DMW, if that's not a fair summary feel free to correct it.

[Deadmanwalking]

No, that's a fair assessment.

Though I'm still unclear on how you come up with full Channeling being worth only -1 Refresh.

[Sanctaphrax]

It's worth 2 Refresh.

But subtracting it from Sponsored Magic doesn't let you have Sponsored Magic for 2 Refresh less. If it did, you could have Sponsored Magic for free by removing the Channelling and the Ritual. Free evothaum!

The cost is different when assessing it as part of a larger Power, because the value is different and the cost should equal the value.

PS: We're assuming that this magic gives only 2 focus slots, right? It occurs to me that that assumption might not be safe.

[Deadmanwalking]

It's worth 2 Refresh.

But subtracting it from Sponsored Magic doesn't let you have Sponsored Magic for 2 Refresh less. If it did, you could have Sponsored Magic for free by removing the Channelling and the Ritual. Free evothaum!

Well, point, but you're giving up the ability to take Sponsor Debt on Evocation as well, and item slots (as you note below), and just generally most of the in-combat-time uses of the power (you still have Evothaum).

And really, Evothaum always struck me as kinda like Soulgaze...something that should be a -1 power on it's own but gets reduced to -0 when taken with other powers of an appropriate sort (ie: Sponsored Magic).

The cost is different when assessing it as part of a larger Power, because the value is different and the cost should equal the value.

True...I just disagree on how much of the value is tied up in actually having Evocation abilities.

PS: We're assuming that this magic gives only 2 focus slots, right? It occurs to me that that assumption might not be safe.

I've certainly been assuming it. If it gives 4 it's certainly worth the -3 given how Refinement works.

[Mrmdubois]

I always kind of figured that evothaum is the evocation of sponsored magic.  I mean sure you could have a simple thematic element, but the evothaum can technically get you that and anything else you're crazy enough to cook up.

[Deadmanwalking]

I always kind of figured that evothaum is the evocation of sponsored magic.  I mean sure you could have a simple thematic element, but the evothaum can technically get you that and anything else you're crazy enough to cook up.

Not usually. Something like Warding, Summoning, or Diaboilism isn't usable as an attack, maneuver, or even a conventional block. It does it's own thing, and does it effectively, but it doesn't do actual Evocation.