Echolocation and Heartseeking

[MZFalconer]

I want to develop a scion character who's parent navigated and hunted via echolocation.

I was thinking of modelling it like this:
Strange Senses [-2]
Supernatural Hearing. Due to your supernatural heritage your hearing is exceptional. You recieve +4 to hear things.
Echo Location. Due to your supernatural heritage you are able to "see" via echo location. You can "see" in total darkness in 360 degrees. Loud noises can affect this ability.
Heartbeat Detection. Due to your supernatural heritage you're able to detect and hunt others by the sound of their heartbeat and are aware of how many (creatures with hearts) are around you and their location. You may be able to discern whether someone has an irregular hearbeat which you can recognise later i.e. because they aren't human or have a medical condition. You may roll Lore or Scholarship (medicine) which ever is appropriate, at a difficulty set by the GM to determine what the irregular heartbeat means.

Any criticism or advice would be appreciated, particularly if the last one is overpowered.

[Taran]

It's a mash-up between echoes of the beast and supernatural senses.  I don't find the heart beat thing to be overpowered, depending on how far away you can hear it.  I assume it's as far away as your echo location.  You have to make some kind of knowledge roll to figure out what any issues are with a persons heartbeat. 

And being able to recognize someone by their heartbeat isn't any more powerful than recognizing them by their smell.  It certainly gives you an advantage peircing disguises, but like I said, extraordinary smell would do the same.

I like it.

My only criticism is the +4 to hear things.  Echoes of the Beast gives a +1 at best.

[Deadmanwalking]

This doesn't quite work as a set of Supernatural Senses. There are very few Powers that add a +4 to something, and certainly not without saying so. Supernatural Senses as such never adds bonuses to rolls, simply making new kinds of rolls possible.

You'd be better off grabbing Echoes of the Beast (Bat) for +1 to various senses when they come up and, as the extra trapping it allows, echolocation working as you list. Then take Supernatural Senses at -1 for the heartbeat thing. That's indisputably balanced mechanically, does what you want thematically, and still costs -2 Refresh. If you really want the full +4 to hearing, another Power (call it outrageous hearing or whatever) could probably give you +3 to such rolls stacking with the bonus from Echoes of the Beast, making the whole thing -3 Refresh.

[Mrmdubois]

Doesn't the Listen stunt add +4 to hearing?

[MZFalconer]

Okay, I didn't model the hearing on the echoes of the beast, I modeled it on Dresdens example stunt in Your Story: Listening [-1] +4 to hear things but your alertness drops to mediocre while listening. I took out the alertness penalty since he wouldn't need to concentrate to use it.
I see what you're saying about it being overpowered though.

I want it to be a bonus to hear things and to avoiding ambush provided that the ambushers could reasonably be making a noise e.g. the sound of footsteps on stone or a rustling in the bushes.
I think that it should be impaired in loud conditions such as an operational factory or a packed room full of frightened and screaming people.
It could and perhaps should also make him more susceptible to sonic weaponry such as flashbangs.

[Taran]

Well, the Echoes of the Beast trapping gives you a +1 anyways, so that's already built in.

As for avoiding ambushes, in some situations, I'd say that you just couldn't be ambused - not unless they're using magic to veil themselves.

Most ambushes need cover or darkness, so while others with conventional senses would be ambushed, the power would prevent that.  Just like if someone were to be hiding in the dark getting ready to jump you, if you're character has a power that lets him see in the dark, they would just ignore that aspect.

Other ambushes could work...like people disguised to look harmless, or if they're far away enough or, as I've said already, if they use magic since magic veils all types of perception.  But I'd still allow the +1 to perceive these some of these kinds of ambushes.

[Deadmanwalking]

Doesn't the Listen stunt add +4 to hearing?

Okay, I didn't model the hearing on the echoes of the beast, I modeled it on Dresdens example stunt in Your Story: Listening [-1] +4 to hear things but your alertness drops to mediocre while listening. I took out the alertness penalty since he wouldn't need to concentrate to use it.
I see what you're saying about it being overpowered though.

Sure, Listening does that...but only for Investigation, not Alertness as well, and with a huge downside (Mediocre Alertness). It's a valid reason to buy powers that total +4 to Alertness or Investigation for hearing (since that's a possible thing)...but not a reason such powers would be cheap.

I want it to be a bonus to hear things and to avoiding ambush provided that the ambushers could reasonably be making a noise e.g. the sound of footsteps on stone or a rustling in the bushes.

Echoes of the Beast (Bat) gives most of this. I see no need to reinvent the wheel here, y'know? You want it to be better than that, buy additional powers on top of said ability.

I think that it should be impaired in loud conditions such as an operational factory or a packed room full of frightened and screaming people.
It could and perhaps should also make him more susceptible to sonic weaponry such as flashbangs.

This kind of thing is best handled through Compels, as are most power downsides, really.

[MZFalconer]

Hmmmm I see what you mean. Echoes of the beast would make more sense, it just didn't occur to me to use it because his father is a demon. I suppose I could remove the heart detection sense and say his inherited hearing ability isn't as potent as his sire. Thanks for your insights.

[Deadmanwalking]

Hmmmm I see what you mean. Echoes of the beast would make more sense, it just didn't occur to me to use it because his father is a demon. I suppose I could remove the heart detection sense and say his inherited hearing ability isn't as potent as his sire. Thanks for your insights.

Well, you can easily grab Echoes of the Beast and also grab a -1 Strange Sense for the heartbeat thing if you like.

And yeah, Echoes of the Beast is the go-to power for keen senses, just look at Red or Black Court vampires who both have it.

[Taran]

I agree with Deadmanwalking.  It's not the heartbeat detection that is the problem.  That power easily falls under Supernatural senses.  It was the +4 to Awareness that seemed overpowered.

If you took Echoese of teh Beast (-1) and supernatural senses (-1) that would give you everything you wanted for the same refresh.  Unfortunately, if you want +4 to awareness, you have to take some kind of stunt that was equally as restrictive as the stunt from the book, for an extra -1 worth of refresh.

[Deadmanwalking]

If you took Echoese of teh Beast (-1) and supernatural senses (-1) that would give you everything you wanted for the same refresh.  Unfortunately, if you want +4 to awareness, you have to take some kind of stunt that was equally as restrictive as the stunt from the book, for an extra -1 worth of refresh.

I actually disagree, a Power that expands Echoes of the Beast's bonus from +1 to +4 on hearing only seems like a valid -1 custom power. It's better than Listening...but it's also a Power not a Stunt, and only a +3, not a +4. It's just a separate Power from either Echoes of the Beast or Supernatural Senses for the heartbeat thing.

So I'd basically let you have the original post's power set as the following:

Echoes of the Beast [-1] (Can act perfectly in darkness via Echolocation, +1 to Alertness or investigation rolls based on hearing)
Supernatural Senses [-1] (Can hear heartbeats and identify people by them)
Super Hearing Custom Power [-1] (+3 on top of Echoes of the Beast's bonus, for hearing only)

But that third one would definitely need GM permission, and it costs a full Refresh more than your first version.

[Taran]

You misunderstood what I was saying.

I was just saying He could still take the stunt in the book, which is called "listening" to give him +4 to listen and that would make his alertness drop to terrible for all other things.  And that would probably stack with his +1 from Echoes of the Beast.

The stunt is in the book and does almost what he wants.  And if you changed the fluff a bit, he could say he needs to concentrate because his hearing is SO sensitive that it takes effort to parse out all the different sounds and focus in on the thing he's listening to.

If he wants a custom power, that's always a possibility but, as you say, it requires GM permission

[Sanctaphrax]

I would allow +2 to a sense as a Supernatural Sense. So drop the bonus to +2 and I'd call that a valid example of 2 Refresh invested in Supernatural Sense.