Author Topic: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power  (Read 9207 times)

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2013, 05:41:07 AM »
People will tell the stories the mechanics the mechanics allow them to tell. If Evocation was cripplingly weak people wouldn't tell stories about combat mages. Or at least, they wouldn't tell as many of those stories.
Where does the perceived quality of a rule fit?  That's what you called out earlier...essentially saying "bad rules make bad stories".  If you'd said bad rules make poor game play I'd agree...but stories may be completely separate from play.

Quote
What?
I'm not saying you agree with him...I'm simply observing you are at least as opinionated. 

How many times have you called someone 'wrong'?  Yet you jump all over him for suggesting something you disagree with.  It's just opinion either way.
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“As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.”  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2013, 06:19:11 AM »
Where does the perceived quality of a rule fit?  That's what you called out earlier...essentially saying "bad rules make bad stories".  If you'd said bad rules make poor game play I'd agree...but stories may be completely separate from play.

Bad rules don't necessarily make bad stories, but they do constrain the good stories you can tell. If mechanic X is unusable, for instance, you'll have trouble telling whatever stories involve the thing mechanic X represents.

When it comes to telling stories, the best mechanics are the ones that aren't in the way.

I'm not saying you agree with him...I'm simply observing you are at least as opinionated. 

How many times have you called someone 'wrong'?  Yet you jump all over him for suggesting something you disagree with.  It's just opinion either way.

Opinionated is fine in my books. You can tell me I'm wrong, you can tell me my ideas are bad. You can even call me names.

But you can't tell me I'm playing the game wrong. That's both rude and ridiculous.

Offline Vargo Teras

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2013, 10:28:21 AM »
Of course, that all varies by number of opponents, length of combat, and degree of coordination available to the group.
This is the major factor. The utility of stress-free counterspelling is not that you need it on the first counterspell; it's that if you've already burned three of your stress boxes taking out the warlock's three apprentices and the fourth on his summoned demon, that you don't need to eat a consequence immediately when the warlock himself appears; or, equally, that you can save those stress for when you know you're going to need them later. And the utility of a Weapon:5 that doesn't violate the First Law when you hack a warlock's head off with it shouldn't need restating. Yes, it's more efficient to use one big offensive evocation to take someone down, but there's all kinds of reasons why someone might hesitate to throw a Weapon:12 attack at another human being. Many of those reasons carry Warden Swords.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2013, 10:48:56 AM »
This is the major factor. The utility of stress-free counterspelling is not that you need it on the first counterspell; it's that if you've already burned three of your stress boxes taking out the warlock's three apprentices and the fourth on his summoned demon, that you don't need to eat a consequence immediately when the warlock himself appears; or, equally, that you can save those stress for when you know you're going to need them later.

I agree with this sentiment in general, but find Counterspelling to be too specific a niche for it to be quite as effective as it might be on this particular issue. I mean, let's ask a question: Would you rather have said unlimited counterspelling (at Weapons +2) or unlimited Weapon 5 attacks? I think the attacks sound at least as shiny/likely to be useful...but the Counterspells are the expensive part, which seems wrong.

And the utility of a Weapon:5 that doesn't violate the First Law when you hack a warlock's head off with it shouldn't need restating. Yes, it's more efficient to use one big offensive evocation to take someone down, but there's all kinds of reasons why someone might hesitate to throw a Weapon:12 attack at another human being. Many of those reasons carry Warden Swords.

This is simply true. Though (as I stated in my first post) I'd personally probably find the Enchanted Item version sufficient to my needs.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2013, 01:28:54 PM »
When I designed Might Over Magic, it was really so that I could throw a character who could simply cut through my players well layered magical defenses at them and shake things up.

The idea of a Warden isn't optimized.  It is a "gish" and thus will practically always be suboptimal because it tries to excel at two things.  However, I think a Warden could be made reasonably effective with such a skill list:

Superb: Discipline, Weapons
Great: Conviction, Lore
Good: Endurance, Athletics
Whatever else you like...

There's some room to play with it, but it seems like this would be the "goal" of Warden training.  I do think the fact that the enchanted item is cheaper and can key off of discipline is going to make it a better option though.  Even if it costs stress to use a lot, you're probably not using it more than 1/scene. 

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2013, 07:36:12 PM »
When I designed Might Over Magic, it was really so that I could throw a character who could simply cut through my players well layered magical defenses at them and shake things up.

Which is cool, and it looks to work very well for non-magic users to do precisely that. I'm really just arguing that the ability to counterspell at all is a large part of the power's cost, and so people who can already counterspell anyway (like Wizards) should thus get a cost break on it.

The idea of a Warden isn't optimized.  It is a "gish" and thus will practically always be suboptimal because it tries to excel at two things. 

This is simply not true. It's true in some systems and with some builds but it's not some ultimate truth of the universe. I can pretty easily build a character who's pretty much at the peak (or at least really damn close) of both physical combat and magical prowess in several ways in the DFRPG...he suffers in other areas, but he's damn sure good at both those.

Now, it's true that most games (including this one) have character creation systems that limit somehow the number of specialties you can be truly excellent in...but two is rarely too many, even if one of them is magic (a particularly expensive area).

However, I think a Warden could be made reasonably effective with such a skill list:

Superb: Discipline, Weapons
Great: Conviction, Lore
Good: Endurance, Athletics
Whatever else you like...

There's some room to play with it, but it seems like this would be the "goal" of Warden training.

I'd argue that it's more like Conviction at Superb and either Weapons or Discipline (your choice) at Great...but yeah, something like that. And it's potentially pretty damn scary.

I do think the fact that the enchanted item is cheaper and can key off of discipline is going to make it a better option though.  Even if it costs stress to use a lot, you're probably not using it more than 1/scene.

The Warden's Sword specifically can't key off Discipline...but yeah, it's usually a better bet.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2013, 08:31:03 PM »
My point was, this isn't quite what Might Over Magic was designed for, and thus would be sub optimal.

In any limited resource system, spending resources on two ways to solve the same problem (in this case, combat/dealing damage/etc) is suboptimal until one of those ways is already "maxed out."  Multiple specialities is more useful when those specialities aren't two ways of doing the same thing.  A "gish" is more viable when it is done with a single mechanical speciality that has the flavor of a hybrid, rather than attempting two mechanical specialities which are used to solve the same type of problems.

I tend to see control as more useful than power because the system increases damage with accuracy, while power only increases damage.  And since extra shifts of power are easier to come by (through taking more stress), I find having control at at least Power+3 is best for evocation.  The only thing lost out on is a mental consequence, while a character with higher power is more likely to burn out through  backlash. 

I'd only want Conviction 5 if my Discipline were already 5, but would love to be proven wrong on this point, if someone has math showing that higher power is more optimal for evokers.  Or even as optimal.  But in a different thread.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2013, 08:54:20 PM »
My point was, this isn't quite what Might Over Magic was designed for, and thus would be sub optimal.

Oh, agreed entirely.

In any limited resource system, spending resources on two ways to solve the same problem (in this case, combat/dealing damage/etc) is suboptimal until one of those ways is already "maxed out."  Multiple specialities is more useful when th, ose specialities aren't two ways of doing the same thing.  A "gish" is more viable when it is done with a single mechanical speciality that has the flavor of a hybrid, rather than attempting two mechanical specialities which are used to solve the same type of problems.

That's certainly true to some degree, but I'd argue that magic is a much bigger toolkit than that, and that it's intentionally designed to have a couple of big gaping holes if used as a sole means of combat, making some non-magical combat ability in combat, in many ways, an entirely different thing, and one that shores up a weakness in the existing skillset (never a bad thing to do).

Or to put it another way: Because of how magic works, it has several weaknesses in combat. Adding in some mundane skill helps remove those, making it in many ways more focus on a particular area rather than a truly divergent specialty. It's robably less effective than grabbing Rapport or Scholarship or some other truly different area...but it's very effective at making you even better at combat.

I tend to see control as more useful than power because the system increases damage with accuracy, while power only increases damage.  And since extra shifts of power are easier to come by (through taking more stress), I find having control at at least Power+3 is best for evocation.  The only thing lost out on is a mental consequence, while a character with higher power is more likely to burn out through  backlash. 

I'd only want Conviction 5 if my Discipline were already 5, but would love to be proven wrong on this point, if someone has math showing that higher power is more optimal for evokers.  Or even as optimal.  But in a different thread.

All true (at least offensively...defense is a bit different, but then that's optimally handled with Enchanted Items anyway), but Conviction at Superb gives you that all-important extra Mild Mental Consequence, and thus potentially an extra Evocation almost every combat (or at least pretty regularly). You're better off going with that and jacking up your Control with Specialties and Focus Items than going the raw Discipline route.

Or, to put it another way: Control>Power but Conviction>Discipline. At least if going with a Superb skill cap (which is, I think, typical of Wardens).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 09:03:00 PM by Deadmanwalking »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2013, 03:10:46 AM »
Would you rather have said unlimited counterspelling (at Weapons +2) or unlimited Weapon 5 attacks? I think the attacks sound at least as shiny/likely to be useful...but the Counterspells are the expensive part, which seems wrong.

It's unlimited counterspelling at Weapons +5 (with the potential for further boosts), actually. With no risk of backlash or fallout, and (this is the big thing) no need for an Assessment action. Plus Weapons defence against magic, which is handy.

Unlimited weapon 5 attacks is pretty cool too, but that becomes a bit less cool when you remember that unlimited weapon 3 attacks are free. Of course, that becomes a bit more cool when you take into account that it contributes +2 to counterspelling rolls.

So I think it's entirely appropriate that Might Over Magic is more expensive then the weapon rating boost.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2013, 03:30:45 AM »
It's unlimited counterspelling at Weapons +5 (with the potential for further boosts), actually. With no risk of backlash or fallout, and (this is the big thing) no need for an Assessment action. Plus Weapons defence against magic, which is handy.

Huh. I misread that or...something. Yeah, okay, I'm convinced. That big a bonus makes it worth the current price of admission.

Offline Locnil

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Re: The Warden Sword As An Item Of Power
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2013, 05:06:45 PM »
It's probably worth noting that when it comes to counterspelling and defense, power is slightly more important than control, or at least equal.