Help with Holy Touch

[Deadmanwalking]

That seems too cheap to me. In many ways, it's the same as 10 extra Stress Boxes usable for any type of Conflict even at the 1.5 version, and 20 of those for the higher version. It's not quite that good...but it is a really hefty benefit, more so than, say, Inhuman Toughness.

I'd go -3 for the lower version, -6 for the higher. Folding them into the Catch might be workable...but also might defeat the whole purpose of having them. I dunno. I agree that they shouldn't cost more just for having more Consequences, though.

[Vairelome]

That seems too cheap to me. In many ways, it's the same as 10 extra Stress Boxes usable for any type of Conflict even at the 1.5 version, and 20 of those for the higher version. It's not quite that good...but it is a really hefty benefit, more so than, say, Inhuman Toughness.

I'd go -3 for the lower version, -6 for the higher. Folding them into the Catch might be workable...but also might defeat the whole purpose of having them. I dunno. I agree that they shouldn't cost more just for having more Consequences, though.

You could look at them as extra Stress Boxes, but they still "clear" as Consequences, not automatically at the end of combat like the bonus Boxes from Inhuman Toughness.  -3/-6 seems a bit much for a power that only does anything when you're taking Consequences, though in fairness, I have to admit that the synergy with Recovery is a big deal.

[Deadmanwalking]

Sure they don't clear...but they do when the Consequence does (something PCs want anyway), and they're usable for any kind of Conflict. Two Stress Boxes for one kind of conflict seem worth about a Refresh based on Toughness Powers, 10 for one kind would thus be -5, and 10 for any would thus be what, -6 or -7 Refresh if allowed? Half that seems a reasonable price considering the downsides. A third? Starting to get less reasonable, particularly considering the synergy you mention.

[Vairelome]

Sure they don't clear...but they do when the Consequence does (something PCs want anyway), and they're usable for any kind of Conflict. Two Stress Boxes for one kind of conflict seem worth about a Refresh based on Toughness Powers, 10 for one kind would thus be -5, and 10 for any would thus be what, -6 or -7 Refresh if allowed? Half that seems a reasonable price considering the downsides. A third? Starting to get less reasonable, particularly considering the synergy you mention.

Ok, I think I could be talked into -3/-6 as a better price, with the stipulations that extra Consequences from other sources don't change the price, and the Refresh cost may be discounted by a Catch.

[Sanctaphrax]

-3/-6, eh? Sounds workable, maybe a bit high. I'm kinda tempted to go with -3/-5, since Powers tend to get more efficient as they get more expensive.

Of course, maybe playtesting will reveal that that's a bad cost. But it's not a bad place to start.

On a related note, if you were going to give those Powers out for free to sufficiently powerful characters, how would you go about it? I'm considering x1.5 for free at 40/13 and x2 for free at 50/21. Because I think the game flows better when consequences are pretty powerful.

[Haru]

I don't know, the cost seems extreme. Then again, coupled with a recovery power, it will be extremely powerful to the point of being broken. +1 stress per consequence is a nice edge, but I would not go for much more. And I'd probably be careful to do it for physical stress as well. That's what the toughness powers are for.

If you want to grant more powerful consequences to more powerful characters, I'd rather grant more of them than upgrading the existing ones. Maybe an additional mild one for every 2 refresh above 10, a medium consequence for every 4 shifts, severe for 6 and extreme for 8. That would give you more survivability, while being granular enough to not be a waste too often. Also, it will come with more consequence aspects, that can be used in the conflict, which is a double etched blade, but yeah for those. Maybe with the caveat, that you can only use one of each type of consequence per attack, so you don't just soak up everything in minor consequences and shake them off after the fight.

[Deadmanwalking]

If giving them out, I'd probably give the '-3' version out at 17 or 18 Refresh and the '-6' version out at 25 (and giving them out at such times does seem appropriate-ish)...but a more optimized group might need them sooner. 13 Refresh is way too low, though. Maybe more like 15.

[Tedronai]

Soaking a large hit entirely with multiple minor consequences is incredibly dangerous if you're not confident that you can end the fight on your turn.  Each one of those minor consequences comes with a tag, after all, and so really just delays the stress (and possibly the resulting take-out) by a single exchange.  And that's assuming that those tags are not used to invoke-for-effect in a way that leads to even more badness headed your way.

[Sanctaphrax]

Granting more consequences would only make worse the "take three consequences to absorb an average hit" issue. I'd really rather increase the value of each consequence, especially when I consider the power of tags.

In a normal game the 8 shifts of an extreme consequence are a big deal. But when people use weapon 11 attacks casually, 8 shifts seems a bit puny.

[Deadmanwalking]

Granting more consequences would only make worse the "take three consequences to absorb an average hit" issue. I'd really rather increase the value of each consequence, especially when I consider the power of tags.

Yeah, I'm in agreement herew. More Consequences don't really help.

In a normal game the 8 shifts of an extreme consequence are a big deal. But when people use weapon 11 attacks casually, 8 shifts seems a bit puny.

In fairness, you should mostly have some armor and possibly a hefty number of stress boxes by that level. An 11 Stress Hit vs. a guy with Armor 5 is only 6 stress and the same against a guy with Armor 3 and 10 Stress Boxes is only the equivalent of a 2 stress hit on someone with 4 stress bixes and no armor.

That said, yeah, it can get a bit ridiculous, when you get right down to it.

[Haru]

And it's still not worth it if it never comes up. Though on Haru's point, I'll note that I certainly don't let PCs just pay FP for temporary powers without serious magic or very specific situations being involved, and I think many GMs feel likewise.

I forgot that I wanted to address this earlier. I think it is not too much of a stretch for a true believer to take up a true believer power as a temporary upgrade. I would let you do it like this, if the power got so little use, so you could get a bit more use out of the fate point the free refresh would get you, and if there is a way to use it every now and again, I'd just let you take it then and there. Just seems like the easiest and fairest way to handle this.

Granting more consequences would only make worse the "take three consequences to absorb an average hit" issue. I'd really rather increase the value of each consequence, especially when I consider the power of tags.

In a normal game the 8 shifts of an extreme consequence are a big deal. But when people use weapon 11 attacks casually, 8 shifts seems a bit puny.

Ok, good point. Yeah, it does seem a bit weak, compared to that. In that case, I would probably go with a gradual upgrade, rather than 2 big ones.
Adding 1 shift to each consequence every two refresh over ten, gradually building up to the x1.5, x2 points. Like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 3/5/7/9
14: 3/6/8/10
16: 3/6/9/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (that's full x1.5)
20: 4/7/10/13
22: 4/8/11/14
24: 4/8/12/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (full x2)
28: 5/9/12/17
30: 5/10/13/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (full x2.5)
and so forth.

[Deadmanwalking]

I forgot that I wanted to address this earlier. I think it is not too much of a stretch for a true believer to take up a true believer power as a temporary upgrade. I would let you do it like this, if the power got so little use, so you could get a bit more use out of the fate point the free refresh would get you, and if there is a way to use it every now and again, I'd just let you take it then and there. Just seems like the easiest and fairest way to handle this.

I might allow this specific example (and definitely allow a Chengeling-style "You can take this power permanently at any time." thing), I was just noting that many GMs might not, and were well within their rights to not, so checking with the GM would be an excellent idea if attempting to do this.

Ok, good point. Yeah, it does seem a bit weak, compared to that. In that case, I would probably go with a gradual upgrade, rather than 2 big ones.
Adding 1 shift to each consequence every two refresh over ten, gradually building up to the x1.5, x2 points. Like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 3/5/7/9
14: 3/6/8/10
16: 3/6/9/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (that's full x1.5)
20: 4/7/10/13
22: 4/8/11/14
24: 4/8/12/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (full x2)
28: 5/9/12/17
30: 5/10/13/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (full x2.5)
and so forth.

This is an excellent implementation. I endorse it whole-heartedly if going with this idea.

[Vairelome]

Adding 1 shift to each consequence every two refresh over ten, gradually building up to the x1.5, x2 points. Like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 3/5/7/9
14: 3/6/8/10
16: 3/6/9/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (that's full x1.5)
20: 4/7/10/13
22: 4/8/11/14
24: 4/8/12/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (full x2)
28: 5/9/12/17
30: 5/10/13/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (full x2.5)
and so forth.

This may be a bit nit-picky, but your progression is a little bursty at 12/20/28/etc.  A smoother progression might look more like this:
10: 2/4/6/8
12: 2/5/7/9
14: 3/5/8/10
16: 3/6/8/11
18: 3/6/9/12 (x1.5)
20: 3/7/10/13
22: 4/7/11/14
24: 4/8/11/15
26: 4/8/12/16 (x2)
28: 4/9/13/17
30: 5/9/14/18
32: 5/10/14/19
34: 5/10/15/20 (x2.5)
etc.

Each x0.5 increment increases the total shift value of your baseline Consequences by 10.  In the above progression, you gain those 10 shifts across 8 Refresh as +3/+3/+2/+2, rather than +4/+3/+2/+1.  (For an even smoother +3/+2/+3/+2, delay the Mild boost by one step.)

[Haru]

Each x0.5 increment increases the total shift value of your baseline Consequences by 10.  In the above progression, you gain those 10 shifts across 8 Refresh as +3/+3/+2/+2, rather than +4/+3/+2/+1.  (For an even smoother +3/+2/+3/+2, delay the Mild boost by one step.)

Good catch. Though there is a pretty steep jump in deadliness from 10 to 12 refresh already, so I feel jump in the consequence upgrade is at a good place as well. But this is probably something that would have to be playtested to get a better feel for.