Beta Reader Services

[Don]

I'm curious..

Say I have a 60,000 word manuscript and I'd like someone to beta read it for me.  I'm just curious.  I don't have a manuscript at the moment.

My question is: What services are available?  I did a Google search and got plenty of hits, but how do I find a reputable source that isn't going to rip me off (I suppose what I'm asking for is someone to act as an editor more than a beta reader)?  What's a fair price for an experienced beta reviewing and critiquing a 60,000 word novel written by an amateur?

Also, what comes with the service?  Do you get copy-editing along with criticism of the substance itself?  Does one take a back seat to the other?

Thanks 

[trboturtle]

First thing I would do is start with friends and people you know. Ask them to read it and see what they think of it. Be careful of anything you have to pay money for, as there are a lot of rip-off artist out there.

Craig

[shades of grey]

^This.

Also, if you ask the right grammar nazis then you're on to a winner.

[Don]

First thing I would do is start with friends and people you know. Ask them to read it and see what they think of it. Be careful of anything you have to pay money for, as there are a lot of rip-off artist out there.

Craig

Good advice, but it isn't my manuscript I'm talking about.  It was written by an acquaintance of mine, and I'm the person he knows that's reviewing it.  I told him that I'd relay the issue to my forum people.

He wants to shop for agents, but he wants to have it reviewed by someone who has the technical know-how to preempt a lot of the critiques that a bona fide agent or editor will point out, anyway.  It might might make the difference between a rejection and a sale.  I read the thing myself, and I think it's publishable.

I gave him my feedback, but I'm not an authority.  JB's Livejournal actually moved me to pick up a few books by Jack Bickham (Bickham taught Debbie Chester and Chester taught Jim Butcher at the University of Oklahoma), and I just kind of parroted the information in the LJ and Bickham's manuals (I think I have some practical knowledge on how to apply these lessons to actual copy).

----

In response to the warning against snake oil peddlers, I was wondering if anyone here knows someone who has a good track record.  He wants a thorough analysis, and he's willing to pay for it.

Our thinking is that it's better to pay someone to clear up issues early rather than wait for the person the future of your novel depends on doing it themselves.  Besides, people tend to take the path of least resistance.  The premise that an agent who can push a novel that needs little cleaning up will be inclined to put in extra effort selling it is a cogent one.

^This.

Also, if you ask the right grammar nazis then you're on to a winner.

Grammar is important, but that's a secondary concern to actual substance (story question, PoV, S&R, verisimilitude, character introduction/development/interaction, scenes, sequels, conflict, etc.). I have an intuitive sense of proper grammar.  I'm by no means an expert, but I think my feedback on that subject is worth listening to.  I have to say that aside from the typos, small grammatical mistakes, and the departures from certain conventions widely employed by mainstream authors, the grammar itself is serviceable.  Stylistically, there are ways he can word sentences to make the text better understood, but those things are easy fixes.

[Snowleopard]

Can your friend take criticism - that's a big thing.
Some aspiring writers claim to want it and then get uber-defensive
when they get it.
I'm afraid I don't know any beta services.
If he's going for an agent or a first read it's better to be as
grammatically correct as possible.  As few typos and tense problems.
Some mistakes are to be expected.  (Spell check is notorious for missing wrong words spelled right.)
But the better/neater/more professional everything is - the better.
Shows that he's serious about his craft.

[Spot]

I am afraid other than saying "your friend is on the right path with asking for a critical look at his stuff before approaching agents/publishers" I have no other concrete leads.

(I'd also like to see what other forumites suggest here, because one of my family members wants to publish their book, but it is hard because:

• the book is unedited, full of grammatical and other issues.
• the "author"  does not take criticism well. Anything that I suggested was "it's just your view, what do you know?"
• the subject matter and the treatment is cr@p. On my first read-through, I wanted to throw it out the window.

Maybe if I see some good suggestions I can show this thread to them and they can take the right decision, for once. )

[Snowleopard]

I am afraid other than saying "your friend is on the right path with asking for a critical look at his stuff before approaching agents/publishers" I have no other concrete leads.

(I'd also like to see what other forumites suggest here, because one of my family members wants to publish their book, but it is hard because:

• the book is unedited, full of grammatical and other issues.
• the "author"  does not take criticism well. Anything that I suggested was "it's just your view, what do you know?"
• the subject matter and the treatment is cr@p. On my first read-through, I wanted to throw it out the window.

Maybe if I see some good suggestions I can show this thread to them and they can take the right decision, for once. )

You have my sympathies on this Spot.  Dealing with a family member is always tricky.
Frankly I'd hand it back to him or her and say - if you won't listen to my criticisms then go find
yourself a good paid for beta.  (The more brutally honest the better.)
Odds are though that this person WILL NOT listen to criticism from anyone - family member or professional.  I've met that type.
Plead being too busy with work and give it back to them.  You DO NOT need the heartache.
A family member will expect you to LOVE their work and to make it all neat and pretty for them
without paying you, and taking up your valuable free time, and blame you when their crap doesn't
sell or gets shredded by some reader.

I've got an idea - tell them about self-publishing - and still use the work defense to get out of doing
anything with the manuscript.
(Maybe you could accidentally, on purpose, let it fall into Mocha's litter box?)

[gatordave96]

What about recommending taking one of those non-credit fiction writing courses at a local community college?  You could even pay the tuition as a birthday/holiday gift.  Gets you off the hook and puts the family friend in a structured environment that can get him some constructive help.

[Blaze]

http://www.freelancer.com/  Has been recommended as a good place to get editing at a good price.  Although I have not used it personally, I do believe that OnlyElise has done work there.  Perhaps she has insights?

 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

In an ideal world, the best possible option is to find a writer who is enough better than you to be able to show you how to usefully improve, but not so very much better than you that you can't make head or tail of their insights because you're not that good yet, who is willing to look at your stuff and give feedback. 

If you're fortunate enough to find one of those, marry them.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

If you're fortunate enough to find one of those, marry them.

Given that th one I plan to hand my manuscript to is a teacher, that could become awkward  .

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Given that th one I plan to hand my manuscript to is a teacher, that could become awkward  .

Fair point; also, in almost all jurisdictions it's not really possible to marry more than one of your betas, so I can see there being a bit of a dilemma there if you happen to get fortunate in finding more than one good one.

[Don]

http://www.freelancer.com/  Has been recommended as a good place to get editing at a good price.  Although I have not used it personally, I do believe that OnlyElise has done work there.  Perhaps she has insights?

I'll check it out, thanks.

In an ideal world, the best possible option is to find a writer who is enough better than you to be able to show you how to usefully improve, but not so very much better than you that you can't make head or tail of their insights because you're not that good yet, who is willing to look at your stuff and give feedback. 

If you're fortunate enough to find one of those, marry them.

That's why I feel that my commentary is not entirely useless, but I'm just someone who reads a lot.  I don't write.  While I pay attention and have actually taken the time to try to understand the nuts and bolts, he's the one who actually put his caboose in a chair and put together 60,000 words of serviceable copy.

So this guy doesn't have that ideal situation to take advantage of...

Can your friend take criticism - that's a big thing.
Some aspiring writers claim to want it and then get uber-defensive
when they get it.

That's what he's looking for, I think.  And the good part about my position relative to his is that he can disregard my criticisms at will.
---


Thanks, all..  This has been helpful

[Spot]

In an ideal world, the best possible option is to find a writer who is enough better than you to be able to show you how to usefully improve, but not so very much better than you that you can't make head or tail of their insights because you're not that good yet, who is willing to look at your stuff and give feedback. 

If you're fortunate enough to find one of those, marry them.

Done. (No, seriously.)

You have my sympathies on this Spot.  Dealing with a family member is always tricky.
Frankly I'd hand it back to him or her and say - if you won't listen to my criticisms then go find
yourself a good paid for beta.  (The more brutally honest the better.)
Odds are though that this person WILL NOT listen to criticism from anyone - family member or professional.  I've met that type.
Plead being too busy with work and give it back to them.  You DO NOT need the heartache.
A family member will expect you to LOVE their work and to make it all neat and pretty for them
without paying you, and taking up your valuable free time, and blame you when their crap doesn't
sell or gets shredded by some reader.

I've got an idea - tell them about self-publishing - and still use the work defense to get out of doing
anything with the manuscript.
(Maybe you could accidentally, on purpose, let it fall into Mocha's litter box?)

I've considered having the manuscript fall into her litter box. However, she's a discerning kitty and may not use the litter box after that. I'm already claiming the "busy at work" defense. We'll see how long I can keep it up. Eventually though, I'm going to have to fob them off on a paid editor.

Edit to fix a boo-boo.