Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]

[hank213]

Here's a quote that might be relevant to Santa's true nature.

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Note the operative word.  He doesn't say to Harry that he is a being of Faerie, just that he made his home among them.  That could suggest that while he dons a Faerie mantle, he is not necessarily of Faerie himself.  A situation similar to Harry, in fact.  Harry's a mortal with the Winter Knight Mantle.  And Odin could be a god wearing (at least from Halloween to Christmas) the Winter King Mantle of Santa Claus.

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That was kind of how I interpreted Odin/Kringle's statements. I imagined he started out as a godhead figure (Odin) but as the world changed and his followers diminished he adopted a new role as Kringle. Even though Kringle has been referred to previously as fae, Harry's understanding of the supernatural world and it's provinces have proven to be somewhat fallible over the course of the series. Under both guises he has been an associate of Winter, not necessarily under Winter's dominion. Perhaps he, as Odin, was once charged with keeping watch of the outer gates? It certainly would fit that the association of one keeper to another could continue as well. From the wiki on Odin:

...is associated with war, battle, victory and death, but also wisdom, Shamanism, magic, poetry, prophecy, and the hunt.

All these seem to fit with the personality that we are being presented in the books.

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Here's a quote that might be relevant to Santa's true nature.


Note the operative word.  He doesn't say to Harry that he is a being of Faerie, just that he made his home among them.  That could suggest that while he dons a Faerie mantle, he is not necessarily of Faerie himself.  A situation similar to Harry, in fact.  Harry's a mortal with the Winter Knight Mantle.  And Odin could be a god wearing (at least from Halloween to Christmas) the Winter King Mantle of Santa Claus.

I see no reason why it isn't possible for a Fae being to not stay with other Fae. The only other way I can imagine Santa making himself more clear is by saying something like "surely you knew I live among my own kind!". 

Really though, I would ordinarily say that both interpretations are equally possible but I think the WoJ's I posted make my interpretation much more likely.

One thing that I think is getting in the way here is the Iron weakness.  Are Fae weak to Iron because they are Fae? or is there something special about Iron that disrupts Ectoplasmic energies?  Has it always been so? or is that one of the rules that has changed over time (like Wizard's spoiling milk)?  ((Isn't Iron the most atomically stable of elements?  That might have something to do with it.))  What is also important, to my mind, is what Iron does to Harry in CD.  Whenever he gets iron under his skin, he stops being the Knight until it is removed.

We also know that many notable figures in the NeverNever were once Mortals who, after having accrued enough power and maybe a few worshipers, became something else.  Maybe Iron is used as a leveler to cancel out some of that power, setting the individual back at something closer to mortal.  To those who are no longer anything resembling Human, it can be lethal (like mixing a Cyborg and an EMP), but to those who have maintained some semblance of self over the years, it is much more like simply switching a business suit for lounge wear.  Therefore, Kringle is who he is with the power he currently has, Vadderung is who is in when he is at home and can kick off his shoes.  (To this end, I wouldn't be surprised if Dresden rigged up something similar so that he wouldn't have to deal with the WK urges on his off hours.  Maybe just a thumbtack on the arm.)

Iron hurts Fae because they are Fae.

The Fae are mercurial beings of changing temperment. They are constantly changing and shifting. Iron on the other hand is a potent symbol of industrialism. We use it in large amounts of our devices. It is one of the most stable elements and one of the elements most closely tied with humanity. The Fae are beings of chaos while iron is an element of order. It carries tremendous symbolic power (and symbolism is closely tied to magic in the DFverse). 

That was kind of how I interpreted Odin/Kringle's statements. I imagined he started out as a godhead figure (Odin) but as the world changed and his followers diminished he adopted a new role as Kringle. Even though Kringle has been referred to previously as fae, Harry's understanding of the supernatural world and it's provinces have proven to be somewhat fallible over the course of the series. Under both guises he has been an associate of Winter, not necessarily under Winter's dominion. Perhaps he, as Odin, was once charged with keeping watch of the outer gates? It certainly would fit that the association of one keeper to another could continue as well. From the wiki on Odin:  All these seem to fit with the personality that we are being presented in the books.

It's true that Harry is fallible when it comes to information about the Dresdenverse but Jim isn't and I have two quotes from him, the second of which flat out states that Santa is a Faerie.

[hank213]

I see no reason why it isn't possible for a Fae being to not stay with other Fae. The only other way I can imagine Santa making himself more clear is by saying something like "surely you knew I live among my own kind!". 

Really though, I would ordinarily say that both interpretations are equally possible but I think the WoJ's I posted make my interpretation much more likely.

Iron hurts Fae because they are Fae.

The Fae are mercurial beings of changing temperment. They are constantly changing and shifting. Iron on the other hand is a potent symbol of industrialism. We use it in large amounts of our devices. It is one of the most stable elements and one of the elements most closely tied with humanity. The Fae are beings of chaos while iron is an element of order. It carries tremendous symbolic power (and symbolism is closely tied to magic in the DFverse).

It's true that Harry is fallible when it comes to information about the Dresdenverse but Jim isn't and I have two quotes from him, the second of which flat out states that Santa is a Faerie.

Drat! Missed the WoJ confirmations. So what about a wyldfae that rose to godhood? I wonder if the same rules (extreme iron allergy etc) would apply? We've seen Toot grow in stature physically and presumably metaphysically since interacting regularly with Harry. Suppose a wyldfae becomes a leader to a group of mortals? Surely that would have an impact on his power. Then after a couple centuries as a god, he semi-retires and puts on the Kringle guise for a few months a year. Possible?

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Drat! Missed the WoJ confirmations. So what about a wyldfae that rose to godhood? I wonder if the same rules (extreme iron allergy etc) would apply? We've seen Toot grow in stature physically and presumably metaphysically since interacting regularly with Harry. Suppose a wyldfae becomes a leader to a group of mortals? Surely that would have an impact on his power. Then after a couple centuries as a god, he semi-retires and puts on the Kringle guise for a few months a year. Possible?

I don't think Fae can become gods normally. They could probably take on the Mantle of a god sure but actually permanently turning into a god? Eeeh.

Of course since we don't really have an exact definition for what a god is in the Dresdenverse we really can't debate about it all that well...

We don't actually know that mortal belief causes gods to grow in power. It's very ambiguous. We do know that gods are tied to the world by mortal belief though.

I think that if a wyldfae became the leader of a group of mortals it would either keep growing or stop growing (since it probably isn't taking many risks at that point). It would probably still stay a Fae even if the group started to worship it.

[Ms Duck]

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I don't think Fae can become gods normally. They could probably take on the Mantle of a god sure but actually permanently turning into a god? Eeeh.

Of course since we don't really have an exact definition for what a god is in the Dresdenverse we really can't debate about it all that well...

We don't actually know that mortal belief causes gods to grow in power. It's very ambiguous. We do know that gods are tied to the world by mortal belief though.

I think that if a wyldfae became the leader of a group of mortals it would either keep growing or stop growing (since it probably isn't taking many risks at that point). It would probably still stay a Fae even if the group started to worship it.

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fae/sidhe/ have ben worshipped as gods before. some are now. last i checked, there were about 400,000 pagans on the planet. Mab (under her various names) has real life worshippers, in the real world, right now. so does the erlking.

[KevinSig]

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I don't think Fae can become gods normally. They could probably take on the Mantle of a god sure but actually permanently turning into a god? Eeeh.

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Eh, I really don't think gods are any specific being.  Just powerful immortals that choose to represent themselves as such.  Jim has stated that Mab has numerous names, its entirely possible that she has played the part of a Goddess at some point.

I could peg her for playing the Hera role in ancient Greece.


As for Santa, I've suggested elsewhere that Odin might have taken somebody like Oberon's mantle & added to his own.

Now that I think on it, why couldn't Odin have issues with Iron, the same way Harry does.  Harry, as Winter Knight, can touch Iron just fine.  He just has issues when it gets under his skin.

Odin, even with the mantle, doesn't have Fae origins, so the Iron might only bug him in the same fashion.  And maybe to a much lesser degree.

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fae/sidhe/ have ben worshipped as gods before. some are now. last i checked, there were about 400,000 pagans on the planet. Mab (under her various names) has real life worshippers, in the real world, right now. so does the erlking.

There are lots of fictional works that have gods as a distinct class of entities from other supernatural beings (faeries,demons etc). I was assuming that the Dresdenverse was following suit. If you define a god in the Dresdenverse as "anything that has worshipers" than yes, Mab is a god.

As I stated before, we don't actually know what makes a god a god in the Dresdenverse so this line of discussion is IMO pretty pointless. 

EDIT: Should I just add [CD Spoilers] in the subject line. All this spoilering is IMO getting annoying...

[Ms Duck]

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There are lots of fictional works that have gods as a distinct class of entities from other supernatural beings (faeries,demons etc). I was assuming that the Dresdenverse was following suit. If you define a god in the Dresdenverse as "anything that has worshipers" than yes, Mab is a god.

As I stated before, we don't actually know what makes a god a god in the Dresdenverse so this line of discussion is IMO pretty pointless.

EDIT: Should I just add [CD Spoilers] in the subject line. All this spoilering is IMO getting annoying...

sure !

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but is fun

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Harry makes the disticintion between 'gods' (Mab, Odin) and 'GODS' (the WG, Zeus).. and i very strongly suspect there are also GODS above those.. Ferrovax served something after all, and I dont think its a human god. But in the text at least, mab is very much reffered to as a god. 

[vultur]

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Of course since we don't really have an exact definition for what a god is in the Dresdenverse we really can't debate about it all that well...

Odin seems to think the Lords of Outer Night count (or at least used to), and they're just super-powered Rampires. In "Welcome to the Jungle" the Hecatean hag was trying an ascension rite, which would apparently make her something like Hecate. Harry says the Darkhallow would have made a necromancer into a god -- and that's entirely unrelated to worship.

My guess is that a god (lower-case) can start out as anything (human, Rampire, hag, etc.), and then has a big power source/mantle of power/whatever slapped on top.

We don't actually know that mortal belief causes gods to grow in power. It's very ambiguous. We do know that gods are tied to the world by mortal belief though.

Tied to the world by mortal knowledge (not necessarily belief), I think.

[Orloth]

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Iron hurts Fae because they are Fae.

The Fae are mercurial beings of changing temperment. They are constantly changing and shifting. Iron on the other hand is a potent symbol of industrialism. We use it in large amounts of our devices. It is one of the most stable elements and one of the elements most closely tied with humanity. The Fae are beings of chaos while iron is an element of order. It carries tremendous symbolic power (and symbolism is closely tied to magic in the DFverse).

Thanks for that.  You completely missed my point, and helped it along at the same time.

Tied to the world by mortal knowledge (not necessarily belief), I think.

From a limited mortal stand point, there isn't much difference between gods gaining power through mortal knowledge/belief and gods gaining influence over the world through mortal knowledge/belief.  But I think you are largely right (or at least Bob might compliment your understanding of it).

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sure !

but is fun

Harry makes the disticintion between 'gods' (Mab, Odin) and 'GODS' (the WG, Zeus).. and i very strongly suspect there are also GODS above those.. Ferrovax served something after all, and I dont think its a human god. But in the text at least, mab is very much reffered to as a god. 

It's fun but it also makes conversations hard to follow. I'm afraid I'll have to  . I'll also go back and remove all the spoilers from my previous posts.

I can't remember Harry ever calling Mab a god. Could you quote an example? I also don't remember him giving any god in the series a capital G unless they were the White God. I do remember someone talking about "lesser gods" which implies greater gods...Does it say that Ferro serves something? I can't remember. I do remember that Ferro was called a VP of Creation which is the same thing Uriel was called so...that might imply that they're on the same power level. If that is true though than why was he at Biancia's ball? All the other beings on Uriels power level (the mother maybe?) are sort of above things like that. 

Odin seems to think the Lords of Outer Night count (or at least used to), and they're just super-powered Rampires. In "Welcome to the Jungle" the Hecatean hag was trying an ascension rite, which would apparently make her something like Hecate. Harry says the Darkhallow would have made a necromancer into a god -- and that's entirely unrelated to worship.

My guess is that a god (lower-case) can start out as anything (human, Rampire, hag, etc.), and then has a big power source/mantle of power/whatever slapped on top.

Tied to the world by mortal knowledge (not necessarily belief), I think.

Odin did say that the LOTON had become something "more" than regular rampires. Also recall that whatever was possesing Murphy called them "false gods" so... *shrugs*

I meant to say knowledge. Sorry  .
 

Thanks for that.  You completely missed my point, and helped it along at the same time.

From a limited mortal stand point, there isn't much difference between gods gaining power through mortal knowledge/belief and gods gaining influence over the world through mortal knowledge/belief.  But I think you are largely right (or at least Bob might compliment your understanding of it).

Would you mind telling me what your point was?

[Ms Duck]

It's fun but it also makes conversations hard to follow. I'm afraid I'll have to  . I'll also go back and remove all the spoilers from my previous posts.

I can't remember Harry ever calling Mab a god. Could you quote an example? I also don't remember him giving any god in the series a capital G unless they were the White God. I do remember someone talking about "lesser gods" which implies greater gods...Does it say that Ferro serves something? I can't remember. I do remember that Ferro was called a VP of Creation which is the same thing Uriel was called so...that might imply that they're on the same power level. If that is true though than why was he at Biancia's ball? All the other beings on Uriels power level (the mother maybe?) are sort of above things like that. 

Odin did say that the LOTON had become something "more" than regular rampires. Also recall that whatever was possesing Murphy called them "false gods" so... *shrugs*

I meant to say knowledge. Sorry  .
 
Would you mind telling me what your point was?

sure, ill tell you when the conversation had, but i dont have the book right now (its on friend loan)

PG, a conversation with Charity, outside the gates of AT. Harry only makes the disticintion between little g god and big god because in deference to charity's religous beliefs.

my point is from Harry's- or annother mortals -pov, a 'god' is any being with sufficient power to wrok miracles on a planetary scale. Mab has that. Harry doesnt distinguish between them (hes religous switzerland) because he has no way to measure them at his scale.

he does say he knows for a fact the classical gods or the hindu gods could kick mabs butt tho.

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sure, ill tell you when the conversation had, but i dont have the book right now (its on friend loan)

PG, a conversation with Charity, outside the gates of AT. Harry only makes the disticintion between little g god and big god because in deference to charity's religous beliefs.

my point is from Harry's- or annother mortals -pov, a 'god' is any being with sufficient power to wrok miracles on a planetary scale. Mab has that. Harry doesnt distinguish between them (hes religous switzerland) because he has no way to measure them at his scale.

he does say he knows for a fact the classical gods or the hindu gods could kick mabs butt tho.

Do you know that from another mortals POV a  'god' is any being with sufficient power to work miracles on a planetary scale? There really hasn't been any discussion in the series about what a "god" exactly is in the Dresdenverse. I think it's premature to paste a definition onto them before we know more. I mean, by your definition Satan is a god!

[Ms Duck]

Do you know that from another mortals POV a  'god' is any being with sufficient power to work miracles on a planetary scale? There really hasn't been any discussion in the series about what a "god" exactly is in the Dresdenverse. I think it's premature to paste a definition onto them before we know more. I mean, by your definition Satan is a god!

..yup

and your point is?

heck, according to abrahamic mythology, (s)he is. as are half his/her vassals.. the princes of hell are pagan gods of darkness who were thrown down by the 'true god' when they took over as lord of the earth. Set, Ammon, Belial, Asmodeus.. they were all gods once.

youre dealing with two issues here:

in the historical sense, a god is any being that large numbers of people worship or worshipped. Even Uriel recongizes this; he refers to the rampies as 'usurpers' that is people who are pretending to be gods; but doign so implies that the archangel considers the real mayan gods to be real gods.

which has some validity ,  note the classic 'worship no pother god before me' is essentially the same thing. The original abrahamic religion was polytheistic after all; and the darkness (satan) was very much a god of it.

for the abstract POV If a being shows up who can literaly juggle the himmalays and says its a god, im inclined to not argue too loudly.

Mab qualifies under both catagories.

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..yup

and your point is?

heck, according to abrahamic mythology, (s)he is. as are half his/her vassals.. the princes of hell are pagan gods of darkness who were thrown down by the 'true god' when they took over as lord of the earth. Set, Ammon, Belial, Asmodeus.. they were all gods once.

youre dealing with two issues here:

in the historical sense, a god is any being that large numbers of people worship or worshipped. Even Uriel recongizes this; he refers to the rampies as 'usurpers' that is people who are pretending to be gods; but doign so implies that the archangel considers the real mayan gods to be real gods.

which has some validity ,  note the classic 'worship no pother god before me' is essentially the same thing. The original abrahamic religion was polytheistic after all; and the darkness (satan) was very much a god of it.

for the abstract POV If a being shows up who can literaly juggle the himmalays and says its a god, im inclined to not argue too loudly.

Mab qualifies under both catagories.

My point Ms.Duck is that we don't know what the criteria for being a god is in the Dresdenverse. Sure a being can say it's a god but is it?

Let's use Neil Gaimans American Gods as an example. In this book "gods" are beings that gain power from belief. A powerfull creature might claim it's a god but since it doesn't get power from belief it is by definition not a god.

I'm not saying that the same is true in the Dresdenverse but the point is that it could be. In the Dresdenverse you may have to meet a certain criteria (power coming from belief or otherwise) before you can be called a "god". The historical perspective is useful as a reference point but no more. Jim changes mythological stuff all the time (I don't remember anything about narcotic saliva or ectoplasmic skin in the Mayan mythos for example).

For an example, remember in Dead Beat when Harry said that Cowl would become a god if he preformed the Darkhallow? Harry didn't say anything about people worshipping Cowl so that's a point against the historical perspective. 

If a king in europe claimed he was a lemon and executed anyone who disagreed I wouldn't be inclined to argue loudly. He's still not a lemon.