Optimal Spellcasting Skills

[InFerrumVeritas]

Basically, my question is this: If one throws flavor aside and is building a combat practitioner, which is the most useful skill to have as a peak skill?  Discipline, Lore, or Conviction?  I am primarily interested in Evocation based builds, but would also like to know if enchanted item based builds are actually better. 

From what I can tell, Discipline should almost always be the peak skill in this case.  It allows the most optimal use of one's stress track (Conviction, Conviction+1, Conviction+2, Conviction+3), contributes to accuracy and damage simultaneously, and applies to evocation and enchanted items. 

This is assuming Conviction is at least Good (for 4 stress boxes), but that's a reasonable assumption at almost any power level. 

Peak Conviction really only gives you that extra consequence at Superb, but means you're more likely to take stress or be casting sup-optimally because of your lower control. 

Peak Lore gives you the best enchanted items, but without Discipline high, you're not as accurate with them. 

Ideally, you'll have two top spellcasting skills, but if you can only have one, which do you think is best?

[Mr. Death]

For evocation, personally I'd boost Discipline before Conviction--that ensures you won't take much in the way of backlash or fallout, and helps the accuracy of your spells.

If you have Discipline at 5, with a specialization you can boost it to 6, and further with focus items, it means there's very little that's going to be able to reliably dodge your attacks.

One thing to remember about peak Conviction, though, is that extra mental consequence equals another spell you can cast.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'd argue (and did in the other thread, which was based on a skill pyramid at Superb) that that Mental Consequence is both important and really cool. But that otherwise, Discipline is better.

Lore's cool, but not for Evocation. It's awesome in allowing excellent Enchanted Items and effective Thaumaturgy. Of course, Enchanted Items are the best defense a wizard has access to, so they're pretty important.

So it depends on your skill cap to some degree. At skill cap of Great you're likely best off with maxed Lore and Discipline, with Conviction at Good, but once you hit Superb, Conviction edges out Discipline (though likely not Lore), and then the pattern reverses back again at Fantastic (since Fantastic Conviction nets you nothing over Superb).

You'll always want more Control than Power on offense, but that's doable with Focus Items and Specialties even with a higher Conviction than Discipline. And you'll always want a good, powerful, defensive item if you can arrange it.

[EdgeOfDreams]

You've pretty much got the analysis correct. For pure combat power, Discipline outweighs Conviction, and Control bonuses outweigh Power bonuses. If you don't care about versatility and other skills, a submerged build can even have Discipline AND Conviction at 5.

An enchanted-item build is playable, but loses out on versatility by a long shot.

[Deadmanwalking]

Just for reference, my ideal build (in a pure mechanics sense) at Submerged (without going into twinkery like Items of Power granting multiple levels of Refinement) would look something like this:

Skills:

Superb: Conviction, Lore,
Great: Discipline, either Alertness, Athletics, Rapport, Empathy, Guns or Weapons (depending on specialty).
The rest more or less as you like, though Good Endurance and one of those listed above are a solid call.

Powers:

Evocation [–3]
Thaumaturgy [–3]
The Sight [–1]
Soulgaze [+0]
Wizard’s Constitution [+0]
Refinement [-2]

Total: -9 Refresh

Specializations:

Evocation: Elements (Air, Fire, Spirit); Control (Spirit +2), Power (Spirit +1)
Thaumaturgy: Crafting (Strength +1)

Focus Items:

Bracelet [+3 Offensive Control with Spirit]

Enchanted Items:
Invulnerable Coat (10 shift Block or Armor 5, 3 times a session) [6 Item Slots]

Something real close to that anyway.

[ways and means]

Assuming your going focused practitioner in a comparatively high refresh game (plenty of refresh) going 5 lore is better than 5 lore and discipline because it can be both.

[Deadmanwalking]

Assuming your going focused practitioner in a comparatively high refresh game (plenty of refresh) going 5 lore is better than 5 lore and discipline because it can be both.

No, it can't. It can make, say, Weapon 10 attacks, but it can never jack your accuracy above Superb. The guy above has a flat-out better offense than any Enchanted Item Specialist ever.

[Mr. Death]

No, it can't. It can make, say, Weapon 10 attacks, but it can never jack your accuracy above Superb. The guy above has a flat-out better offense than any Enchanted Item Specialist ever.

Enchanted item to put a temporary aspect on you increasing your speed, or accuracy. Maneuvers you can tag to boost your offense.

[Deadmanwalking]

Enchanted item to put a temporary aspect on you increasing your speed, or accuracy. Maneuvers you can tag to boost your offense.

Sure, but those take actions the guy above can be using to do the same. Or hitting you. Being able to maneuver isn't the same as just having accuracy at 9 shifts.

[Mr. Death]

Sure, but those take actions the guy above can be using to do the same. Or hitting you. Being able to maneuver isn't the same as just having accuracy at 9 shifts.

Yeah, it's more versatile. Those maneuvers can also boost your defense.

[Deadmanwalking]

Yeah, it's more versatile. Those maneuvers can also boost your defense.

Uh...the evocation guy can do exactly the same things with Maneuvers as the Enchanted Item guy, basically all of them. And have 9 shift accuracy on attacks to boot.

[Sanctaphrax]

The casting skills are actually quite balanced. None is clearly better than the others for an Evoker. Crafters have to cap Lore, though.

Uh...the evocation guy can do exactly the same things with Maneuvers as the Enchanted Item guy, basically all of them.

Enchanted Item guy can use Thaumaturgy in combat. Which allows some maneuvers Evocation can't do. And depending on who you ask, Evocation may or may not be able to generate multiple tags with one use.

[Mr. Death]

Uh...the evocation guy can do exactly the same things with Maneuvers as the Enchanted Item guy, basically all of them. And have 9 shift accuracy on attacks to boot.

Basically what Sanctaphrax said. I've got an NPC runecrafter, for instance, who has one rune that is an 8-shift spell putting two aspects with an extra round of endurance on her she can tag and invoke for combat, potentially turning her 5 in Weapons into a 9 for attack or defense.

[Deadmanwalking]

The casting skills are actually quite balanced. None is clearly better than the others for an Evoker. Crafters have to cap Lore, though.

Fairly well, yeah. 

Enchanted Item guy can use Thaumaturgy in combat. Which allows some maneuvers Evocation can't do. And depending on who you ask, Evocation may or may not be able to generate multiple tags with one use.

Types of maneuvers can be important, sure, but if you can't do something to help with any and all combat actions with Spirit you're not trying. And I'm deeply skeptical of any ruling that lets you do multiple tags with Thaumaturgy but not Evocation, though I suppose the RAW support it somewhat. And even if you do go with that reading, I can drop my listed example's accuracy by 1 and give him a 6 shift Maneuver 3/session item to solve that little problem.

And he's not even close to his peak, another Refinement and his Accuracy goes up by +2 more...while another Refinement does nothing to enhance the attacks of the Enchantment Item guy whatsoever.

[Locnil]

To answer the original question, I'd say it varies based on skill cap and refresh.

You want Conviction to be an ood number, period. Unless it can be better without harming either Discipline or Lore. So, if the Skill cap is an odd number, Conviction should be one of your peak skills, since extra mild consequences are really useful.

Lore starts out as the least important of the three, since it doesn't contribute much to combat, but that changes as Refresh increases. When you bump up Discipline or Conviction, you increase either control or power by one. When you bump up Lore, you potentially increase control and power by two, each. So if you have plenty of spare Refresh and/or a GM that lets you go all-out in flaws, Lore becomes significantly better.

Absent high Refresh and an odd skill cap, Discipline is the best, for reasons that have been adequately explained. Though as I mentioned in the other thread, when it comes to defensive spells and counterspelling, power is at least as important as control.