The Leather Duster time travel theory

[loki2486]

To add a little more to the Time Travel or Traveled theory:

In Cold Days, when Harry and DR entered to first room under the island: Harry realized that this room was the place where his body was being maintained during GS.  DR looked at Harry and repeated 'Memories-Reflection'several times... I think that there was more significance than just 'an internal monologue' as Harry thought.

DR could be hinting to Harry that maybe Harry had been in that room before (besides GS)... maybe as Merlin? ... Or in Merlin's mantle?  Maybe the title 'Warren' is a bit more than a title... It could be a mantle...

Harry had been told by Odin and the Gatekeeper that his near-death or death-resurrection experience had changed him... Harry even felt that he was changed... changed to what? 

[wizard nelson]

the title is warden and sometimes a spade is just a spade. and other times a door is ajar..

[roteral]

Yeah the term mantle is generally applied to positions in the faerie courts but if Harry was Merlin, the rest would make sense

[wizard nelson]

Yeah the term mantle is generally applied to positions in the faerie courts but if Harry was Merlin, the rest would make sense

merlin i think created a mantle that passed on to the position merlin but because the position became skewed from what the mantle represents it was lost, separating the title position from the mantle itself, harry will retrieve this lost mantle maybe?

[roteral]

I'm not too sure about that. A mantle is something that contains power and if a wizard is strong enough to be considered  for the position of Merlin, they wouldn't need that power. I think we are putting to much importance on the existance of mantles. It would be kinda of cheap if every power up Jim gives to his characters was mantle based. If Harry isn't the Merlin, he wouldn't gain the Merlins power through a mantle. It would be more realistic if Harry obtains Merlins journels and learns from those

[wizard nelson]

I'm not too sure about that. A mantle is something that contains power and if a wizard is strong enough to be considered  for the position of Merlin, they wouldn't need that power. I think we are putting to much importance on the existance of mantles. It would be kinda of cheap if every power up Jim gives to his characters was mantle based. If Harry isn't the Merlin, he wouldn't gain the Merlins power through a mantle. It would be more realistic if Harry obtains Merlins journels and learns from those

  the merlin wouldn't need merlins power? thats kinda backwards. i agree too much emphasis has been placed on the whole 'mantle' thing but the mantle represents a position, a seat of power and authority. that the position of merlin doesn't have its own mantle is highly unlikely. hell langtry could very well be cloaked in said mantle already and its just kept on the down low.

[roteral]

Lol sorry if that confused you. Power in the form of a mantle is inherited, while power from a title is earned. THE Merlin of the White Council earns his power through training its not given to him from a mantle. Otherwise a regular human could be given the mantle and become super powerful without the training and discipline they would require to control it

[madness]

Love the theory.

I would very much prefer this version of time travel than some plot trivializing traditional time travel nonsense where Harry completely changes something.

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I think it might be possible that sub-conscious Harry/future Harry was simply the earliest expression of Harry's pre-cog abilities.

Reading the scenes I always got the feeling that id Harry was much more like "potential future Harry" than like what you would expect just the id parts of Harry to look like.

[wizard nelson]

Lol sorry if that confused you. Power in the form of a mantle is inherited, while power from a title is earned. THE Merlin of the White Council earns his power through training its not given to him from a mantle. Otherwise a regular human could be given the mantle and become super powerful without the training and discipline they would require to control it

my point is it could have prerequisites to holding the mantle, like i'm sure the kringle mantle has a stipulation that he must perform christmas duties. an WK must follow winter law. the merlin mantle might require one to have a certain set of base principles one must already possess to claim it.

plot trivializing traditional time travel nonsense where Harry completely changes something.

Novikov self-consistency principle is the key.

[wizard nelson]

for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses if history recorded that bodies of victims had been found. Provided that the rescuees were not known to have survived prior to the date that the time traveler stepped into the time machine (perhaps because they were taken forward in time to a later date, or because their identities were hidden), the time traveler's motivation to travel back in time and save them will be preserved. In this example, it must always have been true that the people were rescued by a time traveler and replaced with realistic corpses, and there would be no "original" history where they were actually killed, since the notion of changing the past is deemed impossible by the self-consistency principle.

jim has a big enough geek penis to know how to use time travel effectively.

[Bakoro]

I'm not too sure about that. A mantle is something that contains power and if a wizard is strong enough to be considered  for the position of Merlin, they wouldn't need that power. I think we are putting to much importance on the existance of mantles. It would be kinda of cheap if every power up Jim gives to his characters was mantle based. If Harry isn't the Merlin, he wouldn't gain the Merlins power through a mantle. It would be more realistic if Harry obtains Merlins journels and learns from those

Lol sorry if that confused you. Power in the form of a mantle is inherited, while power from a title is earned. THE Merlin of the White Council earns his power through training its not given to him from a mantle. Otherwise a regular human could be given the mantle and become super powerful without the training and discipline they would require to control it

There are Mantles and mantles. The Fae Knight/Queen Mantles are magical constructs which seem to be discrete entities from their hosts. These can be passed around and grant overt magical powers. Little "m" mantles are a little more mundane - one could don a mantle of authority for example - there is power in the position/title itself rather than giving an actual magical or physical power boost.

The title of Merlin probably doesn't come with a magical power boost but it definitely comes with the power of authority and political weight. The position might also come with secrets, special access or special contacts not privy to others - that is power in a different form.
The position of Warden is a little more ambiguous. Ebenezer already referred to the position as a mantle, but I think he meant it as people normally do - a position with special rights and responsibilities. The mantle of Warden does seem to come with its own power boost in the way of limited intellectus, but its real "power" is in giving Harry control over the prison and Demon Reach. He's been granted authority rather than a direct power boost.

So yeah, when people talk about Mantles or mantles I think we need to clarify what we mean: if we are regarding a specific role as being a Magical construct with some cosmic purpose, or a more mundane position. It's important because higher powered beings in DF have consistently been in or previously held positions of authority and/or responsibility. It's almost as if they are inseparable past a certain point, so Harry WILL most likely gain extra responsibilities for every power-up he gets but not every mantle in DF is a magical contsruct (that would be silly).   

Also, it's been said over and over and over, but power does not immediately or necessarily mean quantifiable magical energy units. Power fundamentally is the ability to act. There is physical power, magical power (in seemingly quantifiable units), there is knowledge, there is wisdom, there is authority, and probably many other forms of power.
In the books we see that Harry has much more metaphysical mass than most Wizards, yet others who don't have as much are far more powerful than Harry is because they have authority, knowledge, and wisdom. For example, Luccio is able to do more powerful fire spells than Harry with less energy because she has finer control. Same thing with the Archive, she has crazy amounts of knowledge that allows her to wield magic in ways Harry probably couldn't imagine. Harry could beat Fix butt naked because of his absolute knowledge of his surroundings. However, Marcone is more powerful than all of these people in that he can hire the best hit-men in the world to do his bidding since after all, money is power.

[wizard nelson]

that was a succinct statement on the subtle nuances of power.

[GrandPanjandrum]

It twas Uriel, page 470 hard cover copy, chapter fifty one.

Well, there you go.  There's no fear of paradox (which Vadderung claimed to be over-rated anyway).  Time travel exists within the individual with no direct contact to the outside world.  The only affectual (sic?) design is insight and perspective. 

If you're "future" Harry and you want to change something instrumental that happened in the past....Good luck, because inertia (Law of Conservation of History) will likely be too strong to overcome.  However, if you wish to prepare for some unknown event yet to be accomplished, your future self can come back to your past self (via your subconscience) and push you in the desired direction to secure the knowledge your future self needs (but doesn't yet have).  It's not about changing a particular event.  It's about gaining the knowledge to better prepare for when that event is to occur.

As Vadderung said.  To rewrite history it's easier to change the future (paraphrase).

If you haven't grasped onto this yet...try this pseudo-scenario:

Future Harry learns that "So-and-So" is behind an attempt to blow up Demonreach.  However, he's never even heard of this "so-and-so."  So future Harry time travels (and since past, present, and future all exist in tandem...he side steps) to past Harry's subconscience and tells him to learn all about "So-and-so."   When Future Harry returns to his reality...wow...look at all that needed insight.

[logistics]

Well, there you go.  There's no fear of paradox (which Vadderung claimed to be over-rated anyway).  Time travel exists within the individual with no direct contact to the outside world.  The only affectual (sic?) design is insight and perspective. 

If you're "future" Harry and you want to change something instrumental that happened in the past....Good luck, because inertia (Law of Conservation of History) will likely be too strong to overcome.  However, if you wish to prepare for some unknown event yet to be accomplished, your future self can come back to your past self (via your subconscience) and push you in the desired direction to secure the knowledge your future self needs (but doesn't yet have).  It's not about changing a particular event.  It's about gaining the knowledge to better prepare for when that event is to occur.

As Vadderung said.  To rewrite history it's easier to change the future (paraphrase).

If you haven't grasped onto this yet...try this pseudo-scenario:

Future Harry learns that "So-and-So" is behind an attempt to blow up Demonreach.  However, he's never even heard of this "so-and-so."  So future Harry time travels (and since past, present, and future all exist in tandem...he side steps) to past Harry's subconscience and tells him to learn all about "So-and-so."   When Future Harry returns to his reality...wow...look at all that needed insight.

As far as this goes, I do think Harry is being a bit more proactive in changing things then just acquiring information. The figure actively pushes him into new ways of thinking about the situations he finds himself in. He gets the Present Harry to do things he otherwise would not do. But because his past self is still making the choices, then the inertia problem doesn't apply. I suppose that's just a different way of phrasing the same thing you just stated, so way for me being redundant. Future Harry is changing his past's perspective and choices, and presumably altering his present in so doing. Or perhaps making alternate realities/possibilities, like a reality sized Quantum Superposition - Odin's commentary on twinned universes seems to be kinda like multiverse theory.

[GrandPanjandrum]

As far as this goes, I do think Harry is being a bit more proactive in changing things then just acquiring information. The figure actively pushes him into new ways of thinking about the situations he finds himself in. He gets the Present Harry to do things he otherwise would not do. But because his past self is still making the choices, then the inertia problem doesn't apply. I suppose that's just a different way of phrasing the same thing you just stated, so way for me being redundant. Future Harry is changing his past's perspective and choices, and presumably altering his present in so doing. Or perhaps making alternate realities/possibilities, like a reality sized Quantum Superposition - Odin's commentary on twinned universes seems to be kinda like multiverse theory.

Heh...try this one for more proactive.  Future Harry goes back to Past Harry and tells him to hide his 44 caliber gun in Lara Raith's office when he and Luccio go to visit in Turn Coat.  Then, down the road, Future Harry visits Lara Raith to intimidate her and agrees to leave all his weapons etc. with security.  When they get to Laura's office, he pulls the hidden 44 out from where it was hidden and starts negotiating.