Author Topic: Catches and Banes  (Read 6106 times)

Offline johntfs

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Catches and Banes
« on: December 25, 2012, 06:35:34 AM »
Whenever an RPG is modeled after another work, as the DFRPG is, one of tests it must satisfy is: Does the game accurately model the common events and situations that occur within the context of the original work?  For the most part this game succeed in that.  However, I find that it falls down somewhat in terms of "The Catch" the required vulnerability that balances Toughness related powers.

As worded a "Catch" is something that bypasses a being's supernatural defenses to inflict injury upon him or her.  A werewolf shot with a silver bullet will tend to take far more damage than one shot with a normal bullet.  Not only that, the wounds of a silver bullet are not affected by the werewolf's supernatural ability to recover.  Thus, a werewolf will take longer to heal the consequence of being shot by silver.  So far, so good.

The problems comes when the "Catch" seems to do far than simply act as an equalizing vulnerability.  Consider the White Court vampires and their Catch of True Love.  In Book 6 Thomas Raith tells Harry about this weakness and describes a situation in which Lara is so badly burned by a wedding ring that it left a permanent scar on her hand.  Note the context here.  Lara wasn't slapped by a person wearing the ring in a damaging attack.  The ring was presumably an object that Lara picked up.  Furthermore, we get a demonstration of the full effects of Love in Book 11.  When Justine kisses Madeline and sweeps her hair down Madeline's body, Harry describes the effect as being similar to a strong acid being poured on her skin.  Finally, along with dealing actual damage, Love makes a person immune to a White Court vampire's greatest power, the ability to induce specific emotion in their prey and use those emotions to feed upon their victim's life force.  That's not a Catch.  That's a net made from fishhooks and barbed wire.

So, I would recommend introducing an upgraded version of the Catch called a Bane.  Banes are built much in the same way as Catches in terms of the availability and secrecy of the Bane.  Banes have other aspects depending on what they do.  A Bane that disables or provides immunity to powers worth a fourth or less than a character's modified Refresh cost for that suite of powers(1) or less is worth 0 points.  One that disables or provides immunity to powers with at least half Refresh cost for the suite is worth +1.  One that disables or provides immunity to at least three-quarters of a suite's supernatural abilities is worth +2.  Note that since a Bane is already a Catch, Toughness Powers aside from Immunity to Damage are not considered part of a power suite's refresh cost  A Bane may also have a damaging aspect, the strength of which is determined in the same way as the disabling effect was with the modified Refresh rolled as an attack against the target's Endurance with the modified Refresh as damage (or even damage modifier).

Example: Kevin, a former Changeling who Chose to be human, is being chased by a couple of Winter Sidhe who some payback for things he did before his Choice.  The Sidhe have Glamour(-2), Inhuman Speed(-2), Strength (-2), Toughness(-2) and Recovery(-2) for a total modified Refresh of (-6) and they have both a Power Loss and Damage Bane to Iron/Steel.  Kevin ducks into a chop shop with the two Fae in pursuit.  As they enter, Kevin a can of nuts and bolts and hurls the contents at them.  The second Fae dodges back, but the first is hit.  Normally, this tactic would at be a maneuver or distraction, but these are Fae and their Bane is iron.  So, not only does Kevin get the benefit of the maneuver, he cause Fae 1 to temporarily lose his powers and applies a Damage 6 hit plus Shifts.  Fae 1, shrieking and blistering, flees.  Which gives Kevin time to grab his trusty crowbar and swing it at Fae 2.  Successful strikes with this weapon will be Damage 8 (Weapon 2 plus Bane damage 6) and will apply consequences of Power loss.  Assuming he survives, Fae 2 will probably rethink coming after Kevin again.  Directly, anyway...

The final aspect of a Bane is Range.  If a Bane is only effective if deliberately deployed as a maneuver or weapon, its worth is 0.  If it's effective in melee range (touch or up to five feet) it's worth +1.  It's it's effective up to 60 feet or so, it's +2.

There is one other consideration for Bane and that is the Bane Limit.  It should be obvious that someone could use the Bane rules to put together a ridiculously large Refresh cost break and build characters far in excess of a campaign's normal refresh limits.  The potential Refresh rebate for the Fae in the above example would be +10 (+2 for common item; +1 for research needed (Fae aren't quite as well known as werewolves and vampires); +2 for Power Loss (Fae lose most their non-human powers at the touch of iron); +2 for damage (iron hurts a lot);  and +1 for range (it does, however, still have to touch them to be effective).  The Bane Limit is the (Refresh Cost of a power suite's abilities - (bonuses for other limitations (human form, feeding dependency) + Toughness powers))/2 rounding down.  For our Fae up there that would be a 3.  The total Refresh cost is 10.  Subtracting Recovery and Toughness yields 6.  6 divided by 2 is 3.  Which doesn't seem like a lot considering the ways in which iron can screw these Fae up.

The thing to remember is that characters change a grow .  Suppose our Fae improves his Glamor to Greater Glamor, a -2 Refresh cost.  With that ability, his Bane Limit grows to 4 (Refresh cost - toughness)/2.  Thus a 1 point increase in Refresh could allow our Fae to effectively gain a 2 Refresh cost ability.  Note as well that Banes can increase.  Perhaps a Changeling with a simple Catch of iron could see that Catch become a nasty bane as he gains more and more power of the Fae, becoming more sensitive to Iron as he grows less and less human.

A character can have multiple Banes, but just like Catches, only the most potent give a Refresh break.  Multiple Banes can, however, be quite useful as potential Compels, especially for those who like to live close to the Refresh edge and need those extra Fate points.

(1) A Power suite is a set of powers linked to a particular High Concept like Changeling, Werewolf, White Court Vampire, etc.  Suppose Billy the Werewolf had a total Power Loss Bane to Silver.  Suppose further that some bizarre circumstance caused him to be gifted (cursed?) with The Sight(-1) and Soulgazing.  If Billy were shot by a silver bullet he would immediately transform to his human form and not even have his increased sensory perception (Echoes of the Beast) until the bullet was removed.  He would, however, still have The Sight/Sougazing because those are not part of the werewolf power suite.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2012, 07:15:01 AM »
This doesn't seem necessary. Some Catches doing constant damage is already a built in possibility (ala sunlight for the Red Court). And any additional badness can easily be reflected by compels or enemy invokes of their High Concept. That is one of the things it's for, after all.

And you're exaggerating the degree of immunity you get from White Court powers due to True Love. Harry still gets effected quite a bit even in, say, Blood Rites where he's got a fair amount of that protection going. It helps, and it burns them, but it does not equal full immunity.

Offline Locnil

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1303
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2012, 09:19:00 AM »
The True Love Catch burning the White Court is meant to be modelled as a compel. Ditto for sunlight and faith for Black Court, iron for faeries, and similar occurences. Oh, and what Dead Man said, I suppose.

That said, I kinda like the idea of Banes. Have you looked at the Limitation and Potent Catch custom powers?

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 07:30:19 AM »
Damage Banes seem a bit problematic to me. All rebate Powers in this game work by limiting other Powers, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that.

But I definitely like the idea of Catches for non-Toughness Powers. I'm a Limitation fan, after all.

Offline Dougansf

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 61
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 07:59:43 PM »
I've been wondering how to pull off the "Repelled by Garlic and Crosses" for Black Court Vamps.

So it would be a Compel of their High Concept, which would therefore require either a Fate Point or a Maneuver?

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 08:38:54 PM »
I've been wondering how to pull off the "Repelled by Garlic and Crosses" for Black Court Vamps.

So it would be a Compel of their High Concept, which would therefore require either a Fate Point or a Maneuver?

Or a Lore Declaration or something, but yeah, basically.

Offline johntfs

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 11:28:29 PM »
The problem I have with these Catches being Compels is the choice factor.  If my character gets shot by a gun, I can't just hand the GM a Fate point and say "I don't want to take damage from this."  And yet, if a Black Court vampire gets kicked into the noonday sun, they can apparently do just that.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2012, 11:59:30 PM »
Not exactly. First off, NPCs who are slaves to  their nature (aka Black and red Court Vampires, actual Fae, etc.) can't do that since they lack Fate Points. An important and valid distinction. A creature with Free Will can fight against it's banes...one without it cannot.

Second, NPCs only buy off Compels if the GM deems that thematically appropriate. How often is that gonna happen with this kind of thing? Probably not very, even for those monsters with FP.

Third, assuming they do buy it off, it's not necessarily that the garlic or whatever doesn't effect them, it's that it effecting them doesn't have negative repercussions for them (they get out of the sun before taking damage,the holy water you got was fake, etc.), which is very justifiable much of the time.

Offline vultur

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3942
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 12:00:40 AM »
Deadmanwalking said more or less what I planned to... the BCV can't avoid being driven back by garlic/crosses because he doesn't have a Fate Point to spend. Whereas if Thomas (a positive-refresh White Court Vampire) touches a True Love object, he can spend a fate point to endure it and not recoil/be driven back/etc.

Offline Vargo Teras

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2012, 12:44:30 AM »
The problem I have with these Catches being Compels is the choice factor.  If my character gets shot by a gun, I can't just hand the GM a Fate point and say "I don't want to take damage from this."  And yet, if a Black Court vampire gets kicked into the noonday sun, they can apparently do just that.
In addition to the point in re who has Fate points to spend, consider that there are many ways to refuse a compel. If your sunlight-vulnerable character would be booted into sunlight and burn, refusing that compel doesn't mean you're walking in bright daylight with no problems; it means that by your good fortune, you were thrown under an awning or otherwise are shielded well enough to take no lasting harm from your brief exposure.

Offline johntfs

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 96
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 07:34:55 PM »
My character is a human.  His nature, physically, at least, is to be a soft-skinned bag of blood, bones and meat.  Due to that nature he is generally compelled to be injured if he is struck by a swiftly-moving chunk of metal that is fired from a gun.  So can I then invoke my nature as a human to claim that the gun misfired or the bullet was somehow a blank?

Offline Lavecki121

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1891
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 08:59:55 PM »
Yes. Thats what Declarations are set up to do.

For instance: the guy has a gun, make a declaration with your gun skill to say, notice that the revolver he is holding has an empty chamber. If you succeed on the roll (probably a 4 or 6) but you can also spend a fate point for it, the next chamber fired is blank and you get to tag the aspect "Missing Shot" or whatever and get a +2 to your attack because they are confused or +2 to defense because they shot two rounds but one was empty. Either way.

aditionally you could do the same thing but with an aspect taging your aspect to know that AK-47's jam a lot and thus that it is possible.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 09:01:26 PM by Lavecki121 »

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 10:00:41 PM »
Also, we were talking about when the Catch is used for more than just damage on an attack. That's when Compels really come in. You want to Self-Compel as a mortal to lose outright in contests against supernaturals, that's valid, as is the GM doing so if, say, your Superb Might Mortal is trying to wrestle a Fair Might Black Court vampire. Sure, by the rules, you've got good odds, but thematically, he's got Supernatural Strength, so a compel to make you lose is a definite possibility.

That's when this sort of thing comes up, more than direct damage.

Offline Sanctaphrax

  • White Council
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12405
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 10:28:39 PM »
Due to that nature he is generally compelled to be injured if he is struck by a swiftly-moving chunk of metal that is fired from a gun.

That seems like a really lame Compel. But if you're hit with that Compel, you can totally refuse it with a Fate Point (no invoke required).

Refusing the Compel means that the bullet misses or misfires or somehow doesn't cause any meaningful trouble for you.

PS: I'd expect a Superb mortal wrestler to beat a stronger-but-less-skilled vampire at wrestling. Strength is just one part of what it takes to win a grapple.

Offline Deadmanwalking

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3534
    • View Profile
Re: Catches and Banes
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2012, 10:51:45 PM »
PS: I'd expect a Superb mortal wrestler to beat a stronger-but-less-skilled vampire at wrestling. Strength is just one part of what it takes to win a grapple.

And the rules support you. I was listing it as an option for a Compel to emphasize the sheer power of a Black Courtier (I was just reading 'It's My Birthday, Too' and a very young Black Courtier moves so fast it snaps a man's neck from whiplash, another breaks someone's ankle with their involuntary twitching as their arm is hurt while holding said ankle), one that could be refused and still beat the guy.

Some GMs might not do it (hell, I usually wouldn't), but it seems a viable option.