Help me balance these guys!

[Deadmanwalking]

Being a fan of the Iron Druid books, I'll admit to actually modifying this character to be a bit more in line with them (he's able to use magic when not touching the earth...he's just less so). And to generally be more powerful/useful (as much as possible given the lost Refresh).

Name:Siodhachan O'Suilleabhain (Atticus O’Sullivan)
High Concept:
Celtic Druid
Trouble:
Last of My Kind
Other:
Captain Planet; Ecoterrorist; Bloody Witches; “Never Tell Me The Odds”; The Earth Is Clingy

Skills:
Fantastic: Lore,
Superb: Conviction, Weapons,
Great: Athletics, Discipline, Empathy,
Good: Endurance, Deceit, Rapport, Survival,
Fair: Alertness, Guns, Investigation, Scholarship,
Average: Craftsmanship, Might, Performance, Presence,

Stunts:
I Have Lived History (Scholarship): You know the history of the world very well because you were around for most of it. Add two to your Scholarship skill when using it for knowledge of the past.

Powers:
Marked By Power [-1] (The Earth/Gaea)
Wizard’s Constitution [-0]
Item of Power: Fragarach The Answerer [-2]
Evocation [-3]
The Sight [-1]
Refinement [-2]

Human Form [+2] (Can only be used when bare feet touching earth/ground)
   Sponsored Magic: Nature Magic [-3]
   Inhuman Strength [-2]
   Inhuman Speed [-2]
   Inhuman Recovery [-2]

Total Refresh Cost: -17 Refresh
Fate Points: 1

Specialization
Elements (Earth, Water, Spirit); Power (Earth +1), Control (Spirit+1, Earth+2)

Focus Items
Binding Tattoos (+1 Earth Offensive Control, +1 Earth Offensive Power, +1 Earth Defensive Control +1 Earth Defensive Power)
Iron Torc (8 shift Block or Armor 4, 3/session) (4 Enchanted Item Slots)

Fragarach The Answerer [-2]

[-1] True Strike: +1 Weapons when wielding the sword.
[-1] Armor-Piercer : Ignores all mundane and supernatural armor effects (not including those of Toughness powers). (This was over-costed...and shouldn't apply to natural Toughness.)
[-0] It Is What It Is. Fragarach is an excellent sword. Weapon 3.
[+2] One-Time Discount. Fragarach is a full-sized sword and therefore quite noticeable.
[-1] Air Control: Fragarach gives anyone with Evocation access to the the Air Element and +1 Control with that Element.
[-1] The Answerer. If the wielder pushes Fragarach against the throat or body of an enemy and speaks the magic word, that enemy cannot make Deceit checks or lie. It must answer any question asked of it, but this effect can be opposed by a Discipline check against Epic difficulty.

There, the item's more useful, he's got some decent defense, and he's a solid Evoker using Earth.

[Deadmanwalking]

Scarlet sorta lacks focus. She'd be more effective with either scrapping the magic or scrapping the physical stuff and using the points to bolster the other. For example, her mundane attacks are 6 shifts at Weapon 7...and her magical ones are 6 shifts at Weapon 6...so, yeah, problems. Tell me which to ditch and I can make a thematically on-point character who's significantly more effective.

Name:Scarlet Zuigiber

High Concept
Incarnation of War

Trouble
My Boss Is A Bastard

Other
CalArts Represent!; The Red Sword; “Come And See”; Art Student; Actually Very Nice; Hippie Parents; Squire of the Apocalypse

Skills
Fantastic: Weapons, Guns
Superb: Endurance, Fists
Great: Athletics, Lore, Performance,
Good: Craftsmanship, Deceit, Presence,
Fair: Alertness,  Might,Scholarship,
Average: Contacts, Intimidation, Resources,

Stunts
Playing To Expectations: Being a good actor requires being a good liar. You may use your Performance skill for the Falsehood & Deception trapping of the Deceit skill.
Artist: You are an artist, obviously. Pick a genre and a medium. Add one to your Performance skill when dealing with something that is part of either your chosen medium or your chosen genre, and add two to your Performance skill when dealing with something that is part of both your chosen genre and your chosen medium.
Weapon Specialization: You know how to attack effectively with a specific type of weapon. Choose a type of weapon. Your attacks with that type of weapon inflict two additional stress. (Swords)

Powers
Marked By Power [-1] (War)
Sponsored Magic [-4] (Transcendent Swordsmanship/War)
Item of Power: The Red Sword [-9]

Total Refresh Cost: -17
Fate Points: 1

Focus Items
The Red Sword (TS Offensive Power +2)

Enchanted Items
The Golden Cloak of War (6 shift Block or Armor 3, 3/session) [4 Enchanted Item Slots]

The Red Sword of War [-13]
Purpose [-0] (Put simply, to create strife. Acts as a compel on the relevant aspect)
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch [+3] is True Peace.
Incite Emotion [-4] (Wrath/Strife, At Range, Lasting Emotion, Potent Emotion)
Emotional Vampire [-1] (Wrath/Strife)
Wrathful Destruction [-1] The sword becomes far more powerful when wielded in anger. When the wielder strikes with intent to kill, or strikes with rage, the blade is Weapon:6.


Transcendent Swordsmanship can be found in the master Sponsored Magic list, but i'll repost it here-

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TRANSCENDENT SWORDSMANSHIP [-4]
Description: Legends speak of heroes who fought dragons with nothing but sword and mail. These heroes fought creatures with nearly endless power and some of them actually won. Transcendent Swordsmanship channels the power of the heroes of old and uses it to do the impossible with swords.
Sponsor: Transcendent Swordsmanship is sponsored by the spirits, or perhaps the legends, of long-dead heroes.
Agenda: Transcendent Swordsmanship drives its user to destroy evil and to prove his own worth as a hero.
Evocation: Evocations cast with Transcendent Swordsmanship often resemble air or metal evocations, and they almost always emulate sword techniques.
Thaumaturgy: Transcendent Swordsmanship allows its user to cast rituals that tap into the legends of dead heroes, as well as rituals that summon spiritual warriors.
Evothaum: Transcendent Swordsmanship does not grant the ability to use Thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of Evocation.
Extra Benefits: A character with Transcendent Swordsmanship replaces his Conviction skill with his Might skill and his Discipline skill with his Weapons skill for the purposes of spellcasting.
Note: Foci made to boost Transcendent Swordsmanship spells are almost always swords. That being said, there's nothing stopping Transcendent Swordsmanship from becoming Transcendent Axemanship in the hands of a specific character.

[Hick Jr]

Thank you so very much. All of those are quite playable, and fit within the balance i asked for. Scarlet should be primarily a tank who can do, at her very best, four shift evocations. Deleting the skill replacement part of Transcendant Swordsmanship would probably help, but i love it as is and would be loath to change it.


And i'm also a huge Iron Druid fan, and was tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to represent his powers, which are limitless while touching the earth, and very very limited if he's not. (Come to think of it, should'nt he have a Physical Immunity to magic? I'm pretty sure that's a net refresh cost of -3, however, slinging him into NPC-dom.)

[Sanctaphrax]

Other than that, I can't really say that much. I don't really like high power games like that. There is a point where people have too much refresh and just take powers because they still have points to spend. If everyone has supernatural toughness and strength, that basically means nobody has it.

I kinda like high-powered games because they let the GM play hardball. Everybody having Supernatural Toughness doesn't mean that nobody has it, it means that you can hit your players with 15-shift Thaumaturgy zone attack out of nowhere without killing them.

The balance does get iffy as the power level rises, though. Mortals get less viable, and spellcasting gets more impressive. Consequences get less effective, since the stress inflicted with each attack increases as the amount soaked by consequences remains the same.

And sometimes skill pyramids get weird.

By the RAW suggestions, your main antagonist/s would need a refresh level of almost 400 to not get stomped into the dirt by your players.

The RAW suggestions are best ignored. The importance of skills, optimization, and circumstances makes it impossible to judge character power purely by Refresh total.

[-1] Armor-Piercer : Ignores all mundane and supernatural armor effects (not including those of Toughness powers). (This was over-costed...and shouldn't apply to natural Toughness.)

...

[-1] The Answerer. If the wielder pushes Fragarach against the throat or body of an enemy and speaks the magic word, that enemy cannot make Deceit checks or lie. It must answer any question asked of it, but this effect can be opposed by a Discipline check against Epic difficulty.

Armour Piercer might be a bit too good once big enchanted items come into play. It could easily be +5 stress/hit.

The Answerer is just unfair. There's a reason that absolute effects are so rare in this game. I suggest modelling it as a Compel.

Enchanted Items
The Golden Cloak of War (6 shift Block or Armor 3, 3/session) [4 Enchanted Item Slots]

...

Wrathful Destruction [-1] The sword becomes far more powerful when wielded in anger. When the wielder strikes with intent to kill, or strikes with rage, the blade is Weapon:6.

Personally I'm of the opinion that you have to choose Block or Armour when you make the item. I know this is a non-settled issue, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I figure this deserves mention.

Wrathful Destruction would normally be overpowered, but with Incite Emotion and spellcasting to compete with it's fair.

[Hick Jr]

Thank you for your thoughts. Any advice for a reword on The Answerer? Again, Atticus is basically lifted wholesale from the Iron Druid books, where he's actually depicted

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killing at least three gods.

. That is a fairly accurate writeup of Fragarach's powers- In fact, it may be a little underpowered, considering in the latest book Fragarach proves quite capable of

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crippling FENRIS THE GOD-EATER.

. the powers of the Red Sword that are specifically related to wrath and killing intent were intended to be represented as compels, so good eye there.

I suppose the Answerer could just up the hell out of a Deceit check difficulty, but that's almost the same thing but just reworded to seem a little more fair.
(man I italicize a lot of things)

[Sanctaphrax]

Thank you for your thoughts. Any advice for a reword on The Answerer?

Perhaps it's a stunt-analogue that lets you use Weapons or Lore to defeat attempts at lying. Or perhaps it's Ritual (Crafting) with every item slot invested in an anti-lying item.

[Deadmanwalking]

Thank you so very much. All of those are quite playable, and fit within the balance i asked for. Scarlet should be primarily a tank who can do, at her very best, four shift evocations. Deleting the skill replacement part of Transcendant Swordsmanship would probably help, but i love it as is and would be loath to change it.

Hmm, that is an issue. Ah, well, she's got a total of Weapon 10 when trying hard, she'll do okay even as is.

And i'm also a huge Iron Druid fan, and was tearing my hair out trying to figure out how to represent his powers, which are limitless while touching the earth, and very very limited if he's not. (Come to think of it, should'nt he have a Physical Immunity to magic? I'm pretty sure that's a net refresh cost of -3, however, slinging him into NPC-dom.)

It would be ideal to handle it that way, yes. That said, the current Torc-as-enchanted-item doesn't say it's only a block against damaging stuff...and using it against offensive spells seems a good 'poor man's' version of that power.

The RAW suggestions are best ignored. The importance of skills, optimization, and circumstances makes it impossible to judge character power purely by Refresh total.

I don't know about ignored per se. Taking them with a grain of salt is definitely the way to go, though.

Armour Piercer might be a bit too good once big enchanted items come into play. It could easily be +5 stress/hit.

True...but sometimes it's none, and it does nothing vs. blocks. None or 5 Stress depending on circumstances not in your control sounds on par with a flat +2, at least to me.

The Answerer is just unfair. There's a reason that absolute effects are so rare in this game. I suggest modelling it as a Compel.

That's fair. I'm inclined to go with a slight modification of your later suggestion and having it use either Lore or Weapons as a Block against lying (possibly opposed by Discipline).

Personally I'm of the opinion that you have to choose Block or Armour when you make the item. I know this is a non-settled issue, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but I figure this deserves mention.

I strongly disagree, as do the Evil Hat folks (for those who care). You're quite right it deserves mention, though.

Wrathful Destruction would normally be overpowered, but with Incite Emotion and spellcasting to compete with it's fair.

Yeah...it's also conditional, so it seemed like it should be slightly better than a flat +2 when it did come up.

[Locnil]

Thank you for your thoughts. Any advice for a reword on The Answerer? Again, Atticus is basically lifted wholesale from the Iron Druid books, where he's actually depicted

(click to show/hide)

killing at least three gods.

. That is a fairly accurate writeup of Fragarach's powers- In fact, it may be a little underpowered, considering in the latest book Fragarach proves quite capable of

(click to show/hide)

crippling FENRIS THE GOD-EATER.

. the powers of the Red Sword that are specifically related to wrath and killing intent were intended to be represented as compels, so good eye there.

I suppose the Answerer could just up the hell out of a Deceit check difficulty, but that's almost the same thing but just reworded to seem a little more fair.
(man I italicize a lot of things)

Three, huh? Guess I really should start looking for that fifth book. Though I feel obliged to point out, gods in the ID series seem to have very different levels of power than in the DV.

Anyway, personally I would model The Answerer as a power that gives him a free compel every session, that lets him force another person to tell the truth if they don't buy it off. Additional uses (and escalation, for that matter) cost 1FP each, which explains why we don't see him use it that often. Alternatively, make it so that when he takes someone out, a possible option is now to simply force them to speak the truth, instead of killing them or knocking them out or whatever.

In both cases it'll still be a [-1] power by my reckoning (well, the second version could be free, only tied in to the IoP).


Also:
Physical Immunity to magic would be the best way, since it prevents all direct harm and nothing else. Also, I suggest you cost it as a [+6] catch, which makes it easier to afford.

As for how he can draw on vitually limitless levels of power, I say either give him Mental Resilience with a Limitation of only on earth, or let him take sponsor debt instead of say, two points of stress, or both. Sponsor debt, in particular, fits particularly well with what I remember.

P.S. How much do you want to stick to the source? Because I seem to remember that Druids faced a steeper punishment for breaking the First Law; i.e. they flat out die instantly, no save.

[Deadmanwalking]

So...on Mordred. What's the important bit of the character? I can easily keep any two of Incite Emotion, good Magic, and Physical Stuff. I'm guessing Magic is important but I'm less clear on which of the other two, though personally, I'd be inclined to ditch the Incite Emotion.

[Deadmanwalking]

Mordred was hard here's the magic/physical version. He's the best magician of the group and pretty good physically (though still the weakest in physical conflict). I'm still a little shaky on that sword, though. Also, I've gone back and adjusted Scarlet slightly based on your statements about how she's supposed to work.

Name:
Sir Mordred Malebranche of the Round Table

High Concept:
The Dark Hunter

Trouble:
I Used To Go Bump In The Night

Other:
Razorgloom
Raised By Goblins;
Give Me My Bloody Spells Back
“You Are The Brute Squad”
Daddy Erlköenig
Arthur’s Bane
“Name’s Captain Reynolds, Ma’am”

Skills:
Fantastic: Conviction, Discipline
Superb:, Weapons, Lore
Great: Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth,
Good: Endurance, Survival, Presence,
Fair: Alertness, Deceit, Fists,
Average: Burglary, Contacts, Scholarship,

Stunts:
Hunter (Survival)
Inexhaustible Power: You always have a bit more juice to draw upon. You may take two additional mild mental consequences when facing the stress incurred from using Evocation.*


Powers:

Marked By Power [-1]
Evocation [-3]
Wyld Magic [-3]
Refinements [-3]

Feeding Dependency [+1], affecting
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]

Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch is Silver and holy objects [+3]

Item of Power: Razorgloom [-1]

Total: -17 Refresh
Fate Points: 1

Specialization
Elements (Air, Fire, Spirit); Power (Spirit +1, Fire +1), Control (Spirit+2, Fire +2)

Focus Items:
Bracer of the Hunt, Right [+1 Offensive Power, +1 Offensive Control with Fire]
Bracer of the Hunt, Left  [+1 Defensive Power with Spirit]

Enchanted Items:
Replica Browncoat [6 shift Block or Armor 3, 5 uses per session] [4 Item Slots]

Stress:
Mental: OOOO + 3 additional mild consequences (2 only usable for magic)
Physical: OOOO(OO)
Social: OOOO
Hunger: OOOO +1 additional mild consequence
Armor: 1, or by spell or item effect.

Razorgloom(Laevateinn) [-1]
Razorgloom is the Sword of Wyld’s Shadow- The Dark Hunter’s equivalent to the Sword of Summer’s Flame or the Sword of Winter’s Frost. It carries these abilities-

Purpose [-0] Razorgloom’s true purpose is the killing of Faeries. Take a -2 to any Rapport or Empathy check when dealing with the Sidhe as the sword empathically urges you to kill them. It will refuse to function for any Sidhe who does not work without the sanction of the Erlking.  It also enjoys destroying lights.

All Creatures Are Prey [-2] Razorgloom was forged not to defend, or retaliate, or even to kill- It was made to destroy, and it excels in it’s task. It ignores all mundane armor effects and reduces the level of Toughness of any creature by one (Supernatural becomes Inhuman, Inhuman vanishes) [This seemed under-costed, since it applies to everything]

Shadow-Sharpened [-0] Razorgloom is one of  the sharpest things in the world- It was sharpened on, in order, wool, velvet, silk, wind, sunlight, a whisper, a breath, and a smile. In light, it acts as a Weapon:2 katana. In shadow or darkness, it is Weapon:4. [This, on the other hand, seemed overcosted. It could be Weapon 3 for free, being Weapon 2 sometimes and Weapon 4 others seemed a fair trade for that.]

Mageslayer [-1]  Razorgloom was made to kill Sidhe, masters of magic. The svartalves who forged it took this into account, and enchanted it similarly to a Warden’s sword- it may be used with Weapons as a defense against spells, and may also attack existing spells with Weapons using the Counterspell rules. [This...sat slightly wrong. This version is more...synchronized. Still might be too powerful though. Hmmmm. That might be balanced out by the (completely unnecessary, mechanically) social penalty listed under Purpose.]

One Time Discount [+2] Hiding a full-sized katana is tricksy.

Unbreakable [-0] Razorgloom cannot be broken or destroyed except in a specific ritual involving Summer’s light and soulfire.

On Rotes: Balefire Blast is only 9 shifts. That's really the only change. The rest work as advertised, basically.

[Tedronai]

That's fair. I'm inclined to go with a slight modification of your later suggestion and having it use either Lore or Weapons as a Block against lying (possibly opposed by Discipline).

Blocks are not opposed.  Blocks are opposition.  Any roll (of any skill) that can be affected by the block can break the block.  Any roll (of any skill) that cannot be affected by the block cannot break the block.

[Deadmanwalking]

Blocks are not opposed.  Blocks are opposition.  Any roll (of any skill) that can be affected by the block can break the block.  Any roll (of any skill) that cannot be affected by the block cannot break the block.

I suppose so...it just feels wrong to oppose it with deceit when it's supposed to be a willpower thing, if resistible at all.

[Tedronai]

You COULD have Discipline modify Deceit in that situation...

[Hick Jr]

ooh! It's Sanctaphrax! I liked those books too, but I'm not very far in the series (Midnight over Sanctaphrax)

Regarding Mordred, I do have an issue with him having full Evocation, but the rest of it seems reasonable. The thing about the campaign starter (The Emissaries each suffering a metroid-style power down) is that it most definitely hit Mordred the hardest. A bit of backstory for him is behind the spoiler.

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He's not just someone with a silly name- He is THE Mordred. As in "Mordred FitzArthur Pendragon". He came about due to a union between a wielder of a Sword of the Cross and an elder sorceress of the White Court. In this campaign, Nimue's last name was Raith. She seduced Merlin, and upon realizing he was several orders of magnitude more badass than she thought beforehand, bargained with The Erlking for the power to bind him into the Crystal Cave. Due to the...unique way that elder sidhe seal bargains (think Harry and Mab here...) there's actually some question of whether or not he's a changeling born of the Erlking or the son of the Future King. Following his patricide, he retreated into the Shadowed Halls and lived with the goblins for a while. When he emerged, he was the Erlking's equivalent of a Sidhe Knight and a supernatural hitman.

It hit him the hardest because he was far and away the strongest out of the five of them. The original, insane write-up was, pre-mantle theft, an accurate measurement of his abilities.  (I wrote another one that I didn't post because I'm still doing backstory and power adjustments. He should be up tonight for review). He has "Give Me My Bloody Spells Back" as an aspect because he hates weakness and being weak, which is probably typical for someone raised among goblins. I meant for him to lose Evocation, all his Supernatural-level abilities, and a few Refinements. Your writeup is extremely accurate but for Evocation. Your wording on the this one implies you have another- May we see it?

And again, thank you for all this.
"from the bottom, of my hea-rt...."

[Deadmanwalking]

I don't have another, I was just thinking about it but I can definitely ditch Evocation and manage something else...indeed, with that description, I have an idea. Gimme a moment...