Connections pt. 2: Suspect for SF-FM-BR-LH (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Ms Duck]

Well, that's where it gets convaluded alright.  But, I think the relationship between Mavra and Cowl is similar to the one he had with the other Kemmerlerites.  They pretend to work together, but they'll never buy each other a beer.

Plus, you have to assume that everyone knew that Grevane had the highest bid for Kemmerler's Word.  And, all the Kemmerlerites decided (probably well in advance) that Chicago would be where they would pull off the Darkhallow (due to its Lae lines as well as the historical artifacts available at the time).    Of course, if they knew a certain wizard would animate a dinosaur, they might have reconsidered. 

Summary:  Cowl is on Team Mavra, but he is also on Team Cowl...

the way I seed DB is it was a trap, set by Mavra, for the necromancers. The Word was the bait, she likely had it all along. 

[GrandPanjandrum]

the way I seed DB is it was a trap, set by Mavra, for the necromancers. The Word was the bait, she likely had it all along. 

Oh, man...you have to explain THAT.  Otherwise, you're cruel and inhuman. 

[GrandPanjandrum]

Incidentally, here's a something to add to the above.  SF, FM ties into Grave Peril as well.  Ferrovax is likely the most influential member of the Unseelie Accords (should he choose to be).  Unless, you bribe him with a "princely gift...in this world of paupers" from another Dragon's hoard.  Then, he just might look the other way when a certain party(s) purposefully breaks the Unseelie Accords down the road.

[wizard nelson]

i agree with grandpanjandrum. cowl is out for number one. maybe he's been infected, maybe he makes schemes with other shady characters and maybe he gets tooled out sometimes but ultimately cowl is doing what he thinks is best overall. yes that involves murdering countless innocents and taking out the WC, which btw if i interpreted his DB monologue correctly has been corrupted by other necromancers and dark magic users besides himself. at the end of the day he's a classic vader archetype. why it wouldn't surprise me at all if in the end he dies fighting a larger malignancy than himself 

[GrandPanjandrum]

i agree with grandpanjandrum. cowl is out for number one. maybe he's been infected, maybe he makes schemes with other shady characters and maybe he gets tooled out sometimes but ultimately cowl is doing what he thinks is best overall. yes that involves murdering countless innocents and taking out the WC, which btw if i interpreted his DB monologue correctly has been corrupted by other necromancers and dark magic users besides himself. at the end of the day he's a classic vader archetype. why it wouldn't surprise me at all if in the end he dies fighting a larger malignancy than himself 

No where is this more obvious than when he first meets Harry.  He states something like... "I don't want to hurt you...I have a certain amount of respect for you...but I will if I have to." 

[Ms Duck]

Oh, man...you have to explain THAT.  Otherwise, you're cruel and inhuman.

Im a duck   

ok.. it has to do with when Harry threatens Mavra at the end of DB. he threatened her with a pile of stuff, but what worried her was the word. And WOJ is that Harry was not bluffing. there is something in the word that can scare vampires, and yet its not the darkhallow.

we also know that as the word was in german, and it was translated by Lash, the translation was not ..100%.. correct. Lash altered things, like how the darkhallow actually works.

we also know that circa 1890, there was a major war between the black court and just about everyone else. How major is being debated, but i don think its a coincidence that Eb used weapons of mass destruction around this time. Now is it coincidence that demonreach was abandonded, or there was likely a meeting between the duchess arriana, maggie sr, lord raith and eb around this time. Nor that, according to Lash, the Black Court was Maggie sr's enemy, nto the Black Council.

I think the war went very very bad ( as The Merlin noted, Harry has no ideas of how bad it can get).. and the white council went to the bench, and started breaking the laws. (thus forming the original Black Council)

there are two options, i believe:

either Kemmler created the black court, and the spell he used is in the word ( they were his servants)

or

Kemmler is a tragic figure. knowing the black court is necromatic, he used the dark powe rof demonreach to smite them hard- and save the world- but was driven mad by it. the spell he used is in the word.


so:

imagine you are Mavra. you have the word (you captured it years ago.)

you are planning to once again try and BWAHAHAHA rule the world

you know the last time your masters tried, they were stopped by an alliance of the major powers, using a combination of sheer firepower, holy weapons, and the magic of necromancers.

the fire power you can handle, youve been planning for years

but you have to mop up those pseky necromancers..

and you know the word, can be used by a necromancer, to make themselves a god .. if its used in chicago on halloween

and you know if the white council finds out they will hunt down the necromancers and kill them..

now all you need to do is:

- put the word someplace where it will be found in time

- set up a catspaw to make theu the WC finds out

-make sure you get the word back afterwards

 

[GrandPanjandrum]

Im a duck   

ok.. it has to do with when Harry threatens Mavra at the end of DB. he threatened her with a pile of stuff, but what worried her was the word. And WOJ is that Harry was not bluffing. there is something in the word that can scare vampires, and yet its not the darkhallow.

we also know that as the word was in german, and it was translated by Lash, the translation was not ..100%.. correct. Lash altered things, like how the darkhallow actually works.

we also know that circa 1890, there was a major war between the black court and just about everyone else. How major is being debated, but i don think its a coincidence that Eb used weapons of mass destruction around this time. Now is it coincidence that demonreach was abandonded, or there was likely a meeting between the duchess arriana, maggie sr, lord raith and eb around this time. Nor that, according to Lash, the Black Court was Maggie sr's enemy, nto the Black Council.

I think the war went very very bad ( as The Merlin noted, Harry has no ideas of how bad it can get).. and the white council went to the bench, and started breaking the laws. (thus forming the original Black Council)

there are two options, i believe:

either Kemmler created the black court, and the spell he used is in the word ( they were his servants)

or

Kemmler is a tragic figure. knowing the black court is necromatic, he used the dark powe rof demonreach to smite them hard- and save the world- but was driven mad by it. the spell he used is in the word.


so:

imagine you are Mavra. you have the word (you captured it years ago.)

you are planning to once again try and BWAHAHAHA rule the world

you know the last time your masters tried, they were stopped by an alliance of the major powers, using a combination of sheer firepower, holy weapons, and the magic of necromancers.

the fire power you can handle, youve been planning for years

but you have to mop up those pseky necromancers..

and you know the word, can be used by a necromancer, to make themselves a god .. if its used in chicago on halloween

and you know if the white council finds out they will hunt down the necromancers and kill them..

now all you need to do is:

- put the word someplace where it will be found in time

- set up a catspaw to make theu the WC finds out

-make sure you get the word back afterwards

 

Ok...I'm definitely intrigued...but this puts Harry and Cowl (presumably) on the "don't make future plans" list because your days are numbered...since they both know what's in the book.  And, I keep going back to Grave Peril (Cowl and Kumori are allegedly there...the two in the hooded cloaks when they're passing out gifts).  This implies that after Dead Beat, Mavra is going to be gunning for Cowl (even though he was a cohort until that point).  What I have trouble with is that Mavra's plans would be all for naught if Harry had been a tiny bit slower or less ingenious during the Darkhallow.  Cowl would have been Godly, and Mavra wouldn't have a prayer.  He's not stupid...she would have been one of his first targets.  That's a huge risk for someone who seems to be a qualified behind the scenes manipulator...it's a sloppy risk.

PS: Oh, and Evil Bob's out there with the contents of the book as well...and he could make a deal with just about anyone.

[Ms Duck]

Ok...I'm definitely intrigued...but this puts Harry and Cowl (presumably) on the "don't make future plans" list because your days are numbered...since they both know what's in the book.  And, I keep going back to Grave Peril (Cowl and Kumori are allegedly there...the two in the hooded cloaks when they're passing out gifts).  This implies that after Dead Beat, Mavra is going to be gunning for Cowl (even though he was a cohort until that point).  What I have trouble with is that Mavra's plans would be all for naught if Harry had been a tiny bit slower or less ingenious during the Darkhallow.  Cowl would have been Godly, and Mavra wouldn't have a prayer.  He's not stupid...she would have been one of his first targets.  That's a huge risk for someone who seems to be a qualified behind the scenes manipulator...it's a sloppy risk.

PS: Oh, and Evil Bob's out there with the contents of the book as well...and he could make a deal with just about anyone.

assuming she wasnt there the whole time, ready to take action as needed... (like she was in BR)

or that she didnt trap the spell somehow...

heck planting a small tac nuke under the mesuem green and blowing it at the right time owuld have done the job. but letting the white council finish would have been so much better, as its deniable.

but yes, i think Cowl is very much on Mavra's 'to do' list.

hes the one that got away .

as to evil bob, I dont think mavra knows he exists. She had a chance to examine the real bob in GP, and wasnt worried. the darkhallow was in bob's head, but whatever the black court spell is shes afriad of is probably not
 

[knnn]

Another possibility is that the Darkhallow spell (as written in the Word) was very subtly booby-trapped. 

Consider if in order to really complete the Darkhallow what you really need is some poor sap who is going to inhale the magic whirlwind,  destroying himself.  Then you kill that person and safely transfer the power to you.

Ditto for all the "control the Black Court" magic.  If Mavra had her hands on the book, she could have well changed a key ingredient, so that anyone who tried to use the Word against her would be in for a nasty surprise.

- If Mavra knows this, she could might have well  released the Word.  Anyone who gets their hands on it will just be destroyed.
- If Cowl knows this, it explains why he keeps on suggesting that Harry "take the bounty of the Darkhallow" for himself, and why he let Grevane live all the way to the end.

[Ms Duck]

annother option for Mavra is 'why chicago?'

does the word have to be used there?

and what was her plan in gP, really?

Cowl has his goals. nemesis has its. Mavra..

well lets specualt that the balckc ourt elders (who were immortal) are trapped in demon reach ( seems plausible.)

everyone says 'dont touch the dark line'.. why not? because its corrupting? 

or maybe because if you do it, the master can escape?

what better way to make certain some idiot touches the dynamite then to put it at ground zero?

- white council kill necromancers: mavra wins

-necromacners win, cast spell using the power of the line she booby trapped in GP: <boom!>
     BCE released, mavra wins.

and hey, theyd be hungry.

demi god cowl makes a great snack..

[GrandPanjandrum]

assuming she wasnt there the whole time, ready to take action as needed... (like she was in BR)

or that she didnt trap the spell somehow...

heck planting a small tac nuke under the mesuem green and blowing it at the right time owuld have done the job. but letting the white council finish would have been so much better, as its deniable.

but yes, i think Cowl is very much on Mavra's 'to do' list.

hes the one that got away .

as to evil bob, I dont think mavra knows he exists. She had a chance to examine the real bob in GP, and wasnt worried. the darkhallow was in bob's head, but whatever the black court spell is shes afriad of is probably not

First of all, Kudos and applause to Cenphx for starting all this off with such a thought provoking and encompassing thread.  And, apologies if I go off on tangents periodically (Butcher's fault entirely).

I've had some time to think about the possibility that Mavra set this all up to rid the world of the Kemmerlerites.  And, it makes quite a bit of sense.  But, first, a little side issue:

None of this works if Murphy stays in town.  Harry would spill it that blackmail is going on, or she would figure it out...or more likely, she would read the lie on Harry's face.  So she has to be out of town.

Either:
1.  Mavra hired Kincaid to get Murphy out of town.
2.  A cutout of Mavra's hired Kincaid to get Murphy out of town.
3  A cutout of Mavra's hired Kincaid to take care of a little business in Hawaii  ( Kaupe the cannibal dog man was out of control) and part of the deal was a suite at the The Ritz-Carlton in Kapalua for two.  Mavra witnessed the little attraction during Blood Rites and hoped he'd take her.  Although, that's leaving too much to chance.

Face it...Kincaid was hired by Mavra to get Murphy out of town so she could have an unobstructed gun (Harry) to point at the Kemmerlerites.  Harry should just change his name to "Tool."  First, Mavra turns him into a loaded gun.  In Changes, Odin turns him into a loaded gun.  Both point him at their respective targets.

I don't think Mavra ever had Kemmerler's Word until he handed it to her at the end of Dead Beat, however.  I think she knew it was on the market (and by whom...Bony Tony) as soon as he started taking bids.  Cowl, as a Kemmerlerite, would have told her.  Getting it wasn't important because of the nature of the Darkhallow.  Cowl knew about Bob.  He might have learned about him during Grave Peril (or from Mavra).  They both, likely, had the opportunity to evaluate what he was.  Although, I think it more likely that Cowl has a previous relationship with Justin DuMourne, and was well aware of Bob's history and knowledge of Kemmerler.  He never really needed the book...but was more interested in keeping it out of Corpsetaker and Grevane's hands.  And, even that didn't matter due to his strategy during the Darkhallow. 

The simple fact of the matter is that whomever performed the Darkhallow was at their most vulnerable.  Each Kemmerlerite tried to counter this by having a sidekick.  Corpsetaker/ The Ghoul ;  Grevane/ Liverspots (and his zombie army);  Cowl/ Kumori.  One does the Darkhallow.  One watches the primary's back.  Cowl's obvious strategy was to let the other two fight it out while he stayed out of sight.  When the "last one standing" performed the Darkhallow, he would pop out and take that one down, and the Darkhallow was all his.  The wildcard was Harry.

At the same time this was all going on, Mavra goes to the Red Court (which she has been using all along) and instructs them to attack the White Council with all they've got.  It was bloody and prolonged fighting that even proceeded to poison gas at mortal hospitals.  The Red Court even violated Faerie and probably the Unseelie Accords  (of course when you payoff Ferrovax with a princely gift to look the other way...who cares).  But, the White Council must be put on the defense so they couldn't field a full team of Wardens to stop the Darkhallow before it got started.  I disagree with Ms. Duck on this issue.  She needed the Darkhallow to go all the way forward because by that time only one would be left standing...because of the vulnerability of the party performing the ritual.  If the White Council shows up in bulk, it would probably never get started, and all the Kemmerlerites wouldn't be fighting it out amoung themselves.  They would be hightailing it out of there.  Mavra's hope was that they would not provide anyone to assist Harry, which has been the norm in the past. 

As it turns out  Corpsetaker gets taken out early.  Then Grevane, while occupied controlling the Darkhallow gets taken by Carlos.   If Mavra is under a veil watching this, she's nervous at this point because the sometimes ally she wants dead (Cowl) hasn't showed himself yet.  But, she has her loaded gun (Harry) there to draw him out.  Cowl makes his play (dropping his zombie disguise) and presumably disables Harry. 

Mavra thinks this is golden.  She waits for Cowl to turn his attention to the Darkhallow.  Kumori is focussed on Harry, and she can step in and take out the final two (or three counting Kumori) individuals with knowledge of Kemmerler's Word without breaking a sweat.  But, Harry messes up her perfect plan.  He regains control of Bob, and Bob flies a dinosaur into Cowl releasing all the built up energy and power into a tree flattening shock wave.  By the time Mavra regains her senses, Harry has acquired the book, Cowl and Kumori are gone as well.  Cowl is alive, and Kumori is questionable. 

So...yeah...I agree with you that Mavra had two goals:
1.  Get the Book of Kemmerler
2.  Take out all those with detailed knowledge of The Book of Kemmerler

I don't think she had it previously.  And, I still think her goal is to return to life (I still believe Mavra to be Morgana).  But, I think Kemmerler's Word is a severe threat to wiping out the Black Court in mass....and also a clue on how to raise the Black Court in mass (sort of a reverse Darkhallow in the middle of a cemetery )

Bonus:  Kumori annagram is Miroku, which is an anime character that performs exorcisms and demon exterminations...

[Cenphx]

I need to reread and absord the great Mavra theorizing, but I wanted to drop a quick note--I dont think your off on tangents at all! I just wanted to get the connections between these events laid out and hope that everyone would jump in, riffing off where I started, building, going different directions, figuring things out. So I think what everyone's been doing in the thread is awesome and really impressive!                     But now youve got me reeeaallly worried about why Mavra was trying to kill Thomas in Blood Rites and what the heck he did to 'betray' her. 

[Elegast]

First of all, Kudos and applause to Cenphx for starting all this off with such a thought provoking and encompassing thread. 

Seconded.

I've had some time to think about the possibility that Mavra set this all up to rid the world of the Kemmerlerites.  And, it makes quite a bit of sense.  But, first, a little side issue:

None of this works if Murphy stays in town.  Harry would spill it that blackmail is going on, or she would figure it out...or more likely, she would read the lie on Harry's face.  So she has to be out of town.

Either:
1.  Mavra hired Kincaid to get Murphy out of town.
2.  A cutout of Mavra's hired Kincaid to get Murphy out of town.
3  A cutout of Mavra's hired Kincaid to take care of a little business in Hawaii  ( Kaupe the cannibal dog man was out of control) and part of the deal was a suite at the The Ritz-Carlton in Kapalua for two.  Mavra witnessed the little attraction during Blood Rites and hoped he'd take her.  Although, that's leaving too much to chance.

Face it...Kincaid was hired by Mavra to get Murphy out of town so she could have an unobstructed gun (Harry) to point at the Kemmerlerites.  Harry should just change his name to "Tool."  First, Mavra turns him into a loaded gun.  In Changes, Odin turns him into a loaded gun.  Both point him at their respective targets.

Ah. This is the ideal occasion for me to explain one of my pet theories. 

I've noticed that in the Dresdenverse, family seems to be very important: Mab and Maeve, Titania and Aurora, Ortega and Bianca, Marva and her "children". When you kill someone's child they get pissed, even immortal gods/badass.

Now, we know that Dracula was a Blampire. His father was Drakul. Dracula was killed.

WAG: Drakul is enraged by the death of his son, and is planning his revenge.

That's why he sent the skinwalker in Turn Coat: Harry protected the White Court in a big way in White Night, so Drakul decided to kill him. Notice that the skinwalker was especially tough on the whites: many killed, Thomas tortured. (Other possibility: the big D sent the skinwalker after the SmF disaster.)

So it's possible that Drakul himself asked Kincaid to help Mavra in Dead Beat.

[Ms Duck]

@GP - good catch on the murphy angle and Hawaii, i never thought of that before.. hmmm.

and some folks have wondered about kinkaid and Mavra, in regards to the pictures themselves.

about the word. im very, very, very very sure Mavra had thw rod prior to DB, or knew where it woudl eb found. She started the ball rolling four years before the book was 'found'. Thats a loong time to plan ahead for a 'random event'.

its downright Mab like. 

now we coudl explain this with either prophecy or time travel, but occam razor here. it sone prediciton. not the half dozen Mab does every book.

sometimes, even in a fantsay novel, magic is explained by tricks behind the screen, and i think this is such a case.

[Ms Duck]

I need to reread and absord the great Mavra theorizing, but I wanted to drop a quick note--I dont think your off on tangents at all! I just wanted to get the connections between these events laid out and hope that everyone would jump in, riffing off where I started, building, going different directions, figuring things out. So I think what everyone's been doing in the thread is awesome and really impressive!                     But now youve got me reeeaallly worried about why Mavra was trying to kill Thomas in Blood Rites and what the heck he did to 'betray' her.

ive often assumed its not thomas himself, per see (hes way too young) but the white court in gerneal. they were the ones who set up and betrayed the blacks in 1890, something the blacks didnt figure out for quite a while- maybe as long as a century.

in order to take out the blacks, its not enough to send in the mrotals. the elders would just have lunch. you need to take out the elders first, in their secret, hidden fortress, and in a way that it will take them a long time to regenrate.



Tungaska blast, courtesy of Eb..

yup, they got betrayed. hard. and are quite..ticked.