Morgana Le Fay (includes CD spoilers)

[aShorty21]

I am still not convinced, despite Bob's comment to the contrary, that the mantle remakes a person.

[...]

Any change that occurred in Titania, and by extension, Harry and Molly, would be as a result of choices they made.

How about this. The Mantle really really really wants to change you. It is good at changing you. Every time you choose to use the power of the Mantle, it changes you a little. So the bottom line is that you technically have to choose to let the Mantle change you, but it is a very hard choice to avoid.

[Ms Duck]

I am still not convinced, despite Bob's comment to the contrary, that the mantle remakes a person.
1. Uriel in GS: "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are." and "You are a soul; you have a body."  Both are strong indicators that choice is still choice, despite the mantle.
2. A mantle is just that - something that is placed upon you. Kringle/Odin even goes so far as to say that mask=mantle as far as meaning. One can be put off or taken up. Again implying choice.
3. Mother Summer also indicated that the changes wrought by Harry's mantle can be resisted, although few do. Why should another mantle be any different?

Any change that occurred in Titania, and by extension, Harry and Molly, would be as a result of choices they made.

because the amntle, i think,  is very much like the shadow. it can be reisisted, if you choose to. but non one ever said it was easy; and since its much stronger then the fallen (the queens at least) it would take a truly immense will to resist it for years..much less millenia

Like Mab's

when it comes to implacable will or super human intellignece, summer just ahsnt impressed me that much, yet.

[wyltok]

yep, as i noted, this charchter has a long, long history going all the way back to the red branch celtic legends- where she was Mab's sister.

I wonder if in the jIm verse she was Titania's predecessor?

Hmm... we do know from WoJ that the current Mother Summer has not had that mantle as long as Mother Winter has (the previous Mother Summer abdicated). If you are right, and Morgana was Titania's predecessor, would that make her the current Mother Summer?

when it comes to implacable will or super human intellignece, summer just ahsnt impressed me that much, yet.

I suspect that that implacable will and super human intelligence are not summer's purpose. They seem to exist to balance out those excesses, so that humanity and free will may flourish in the middle.

[Arjan]

Because:

Morgan Le Fey (the original) is dead

Titania is very likely not Mab's sister due to the mother winter issue

the mantle remakes the person, and I dont think there is much of the original person in titania left.

If that were true she would have killed Harry.

[Ms Duck]

Hmm... we do know from WoJ that the current Mother Summer has not had that mantle as long as Mother Winter has (the previous Mother Summer abdicated). If you are right, and Morgana was Titania's predecessor, would that make her the current Mother Summer?

I suspect that that implacable will and super human intelligence are not summer's purpose. They seem to exist to balance out those excesses, so that humanity and free will may flourish in the middle.

pretty much. bit it means 'bleeps' to be them. tho eldest gruff seems to be operatign with all trubines running, so maybes its just titania, lilly, and auruara.

[Arjan]

pretty much. bit it means 'bleeps' to be them. tho eldest gruff seems to be operatign with all trubines running, so maybes its just titania, lilly, and auruara.

Mother Summer seems to have everything under control so I think it is just the combination of Mantle and person that counts.

[wyltok]

Mother Summer seems to have everything under control so I think it is just the combination of Mantle and person that counts.

I was actually going to use Lea as a comparison, instead. She doesn't seem nearly as cold and implacable as Mab, either (for example, her taking care of Susan's remains in Changes), the same way as Eldest Gruff isn't as passionate as Titania. So yeah, it may be a mantle thing.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I was actually going to use Lea as a comparison, instead. She doesn't seem nearly as cold and implacable as Mab, either (for example, her taking care of Susan's remains in Changes),

I am not seeing that as notably different from the bit in CD about burying the deceased ladies on Demonreach, fwiw.

[wyltok]

I am not seeing that as notably different from the bit in CD about burying the deceased ladies on Demonreach, fwiw.

Which just goes to show, that not even Mab is as cold and implacable as advertised, nor is Titania as passionate and family-oriented as suggested. After all, per WoJ, Harry only succeeded in killing Aurora because Titania allowed it to happen for the sake of the balance.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

After all, per WoJ, Harry only succeeded in killing Aurora because Titania allowed it to happen for the sake of the balance.

I don't recall seeing that one, and I'd rather like to, as I've believed that for some time.

[aShorty21]

I was actually going to use Lea as a comparison, instead. She doesn't seem nearly as cold and implacable as Mab, either (for example, her taking care of Susan's remains in Changes), the same way as Eldest Gruff isn't as passionate as Titania. So yeah, it may be a mantle thing.

See I see Lea taking care of Susan's remains as part of her obligation as Harry's Godmother. She is looking out for his spiritual wellbeing. I don't think she was being altruistic.

[wyltok]

I don't recall seeing that one, and I'd rather like to, as I've believed that for some time.

It's part of the classic Proven Guilty WoJ that discusses the fetches, Mab's ability to predict Harry, etc (sidenote: it's a little sad that I can find such an important WoJ more easily in the DLP forums than here). I underlined whe part we're interested in.

Mab as orchestrator of all is just a little much for me to swallow. Seems like she loses a lot more than she gains, and I don't think Mab is big on coming out behind in her negotiations.

Yeah. It sure looks that way from here, don't it.

But to correct some minor stuff: the fetches aren't even /close/ to her strongest servitors. They're her couriers, harassers, spies and occasional assassins. Captain Kudzu was a being that was deemed more-or-less sufficient on the badassometer, but nothing to write home about. The fetches main use, to Mab, isn't as battlefield thugs. She's got /plenty/ of other things for that. Another mild correction: who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived? At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress--but you didn't see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya.  Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn't infallible. Just way closer to infallible than us.)

See above regarding "the question is *why*?"

Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it? Ultimately, Mab can always go to the Wyld and draw in more muscle to replace fallen thugs. If worst comes to worst, with just a few "seed" fae, she could rear up enough Changelings to repopulate her cadre within a human generation or two--nothing, to a being thousands of years old.

As far as she's concerned, everyone and everything is expendable, including herself, when it comes to adhering to her (seemingly irrational and inexplicable) priorities.

(And by the way--don't think Titania is much better. When push came to shove, she let her own daughter be murdered rather than upset the balance of the Faerie Courts. At least Mab is up front about it. Usually.)

Sacrifice her best troops? Mab would sacrifice every creature *in* Winter, every one she could bring from Summer, and every single mortal on planet Earth if that's what she thought was appropriate. And she wouldn't even need to add extra sugar to her cup of tea afterwards, much less lose sleep over it.

But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter. Mab's been in the business a long time, she's got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red--

--unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe. In which case there's a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior. And that's all kinds of bad.

But hey. It's probably not that. I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right?

Jim

[Tami Seven]

because the amntle, i think,  is very much like the shadow. it can be reisisted, if you choose to. but non one ever said it was easy; and since its much stronger then the fallen (the queens at least) it would take a truly immense will to resist it for years..much less millenia

Like Mab's

when it comes to implacable will or super human intellignece, summer just ahsnt impressed me that much, yet.

This talk of mantles makes me think of the White Court's Hunger Demon.  Different mechanism, similar process and outcome. 

[Arjan]

This talk of mantles makes me think of the White Court's Hunger Demon.  Different mechanism, similar process and outcome.

Mantle, Demon, ....

It is like waves and particles. You use the model that best fits the situation. If it talks to you it is probably a demon but maybe the mantle is an even more stupid demon. 

[GrandPanjandrum]

Because:

Morgan Le Fey (the original) is dead

She, most definitely, is dead.  Of course, now that she holds The Word of Kemmerler, she can probably improve her color and smell a bit.  Mavra is Morgana le Fay  *gasp*. 

It seems to me that she wanted to "outlive" the original Merlin for some reason.  So she permitted herself to be taken by a Black Court Master.  Now, she intends to use the premier "Journal of Necromantic Medicine" to return to her live self.  In the interim, she has been spending her time tearing down all that Merlin might hold dear:

1.  She attempted to secure Excalibur by trading with her own Athame. Thwarted by Harry.
2.  She used the Red Court as a cat's paw to start a war with Merlin's White Council (hoping to destroy it). Again, thwarted by Harry.
3.  She attempted to use Outsiders/ sorcerers/ and thralls to destroy Demonreach, because it is one of Merlin's most exquisite accomplishments.  Once again, thwarted by Harry.

In Blood Rites, Mavra shows up and stupidly attacks Harry, Thomas and Mouse for no reason with no result.  The purpose was to let Harry know she's in town, and a challenge to hunt her down.  She doesn't come out and play herself, because the whole basis of her visiting Chicago was to lead him by the nose to her lair.  Assume he would bring allies, and compromise those allies with photos.  Murphy worked out perfectly for leverage to secure Kemmerler's Word.  She needs it to...well...come back to life.

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.  Of course, Merlin anticipated this and is sleeping deep down in Demonreach well waiting.  Not one to go in his sleep, indeed.  Can we read your journals now, Ebenezer?

Truly, I think you can find direct and indirect connections to Mavra/ Morgana le Fay in every single book in the series so far.