Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 3 of 8"

[Priscellie]

On the other hand, there's the following conversation between Harry and Bob in Fool Moon.  There's no mention of the illegality of such an act...

What are we doing, now?" Bob sniggered. "More weight-loss potions?"

"Look, Bob," I said. "That was only to get me through a rough month. Someone's got to pay the rent around here."

"All right," Bob said smugly. "You going to get into breast enhancement, then? I'm telling you, that's where the money is."

"That isn't what magic is for, Bob. How petty can you get?"

"Ah," Bob said, his eye lights flickering. "The question is, how pretty can you get them? You aren't a half-bad wizard, Dresden. You should think about how grateful all those beautiful women will be."

I snorted and started cleaning off a space on the center table, stacking things up to one side. "You know, Bob, some of us aren't obsessed with sex."

Of course, that was way back in the second book, and the magical rules have changed a bit as Jim has grown as a writer.  Just thought it bore mentioning.

[iago]

Plus, Bob is not that much up on the whole human morality thing.  There's nothing saying Bob won't occasionally advocate breaking a Law.

[SoulCatcher78]

That spawns an interesting question to be put to the forum, then: can you think of any grey areas where accidental transformations might occur? 

What about transformations that aren't into animal forms -- twisting someone's body (perhaps robbing them of the use of their limbs), but still leaving them a thinking person?

*cue angent Smith voice* Mr Anderson ( I sooo couldn't help that one).

Accidentally sealing someone mouth shut (or worse yet, their throat) when what you were trying to do was Silence them.  Wild talent mistake rather than a full on Wizard screw up but still a possibility.

[Matrix Refugee (formerly Morraeon)]

*cue angent Smith voice* Mr Anderson ( I sooo couldn't help that one).

Accidentally sealing someone mouth shut (or worse yet, their throat) when what you were trying to do was Silence them.  Wild talent mistake rather than a full on Wizard screw up but still a possibility.

Great minds -- or "Matrix" fans -- do think alike!

[Kristine]

That spawns an interesting question to be put to the forum, then: can you think of any grey areas where accidental transformations might occur? 

What about transformations that aren't into animal forms -- twisting someone's body (perhaps robbing them of the use of their limbs), but still leaving them a thinking person?

Let me count the ways...But really, I think flegling wizards might have a few accidental transformations.   If I wanted to change myself into a lion but I really don't know too much about lions I might end up a human with a tail, a mane and long teeth.  It would also stand to reason that untrained magic users who are not under the supervision of a trained practitioner (read; future warlocks/sorcerers and/or headless corpses) might tell their friends about their new found powers and, like 'the jedi mind trick', try the 'Disney - Sword in the Stone' -Merlin with Aurthur, tricks.   Once again if the newly minted mage doesn't know that much about the animal he is trying to transform the person into, his/her friend could wind up the one with the fangs, mane and tail.  Then comes the question of how to change them back - do they know every aspect of the friends apperance?  Would the friend look like how the magic user thinks they look?  If you can't visualize what they had looked like clearly will your friend end up looking like melted wax?  Can you use a picture for visualizations for both the change to and from?  If you don't know how gills work can you transform someone into a fish?

I can see alot of these things being a GM's call in the game or you would need and 'accident' transformation table.

Other circumstances where transformations might be 'accidental':

1. Fledgling wizard (I think they would need more training for this one) is a lifeguard and when he/she can't save a drowning person transforms them instead into something that can breath water with the logic that they are better off changed than dead.

2. Fledgling practioner knows a friend who is in a bad home situation - abuse, neglect, basically unhappy - and changes friend into a 'stray' dog to adopt, with the thought to change the person back when authorities stop looking for them.

3. Fledgling practioner knows someone with a degenerative disease or birth defect (scoleosis, club foot, cleft palatte...etc.) and tries to 'cure' the problem by reshaping the flesh.

4.  Fledgling practioner tries to give themself and or friend the ability to fly but visualizes a bird instead of wind and kenetic energy.

that's a few I can think of...

[cephis]

I think whosit or whatsit has a point.  Hunter-spirits might not all unleash the darker side of humanity.  I'm sure Injun Joe could turn you into a fine racoon if you had the mind to.  and the Hexen Wolf belts were given with evil intentions like in exchange for you soul, but I think that Harry, with Bobs help, make a "anchor" to keep a practisioner safe.  True he would be hunted down and killed by the white counsel but hey, what life without risk? 

[Isengrim]

I think that this is definitely a law that requires a lot of interpretation. There are several applications of magic that you can do that certainly are transformations. Giving people the ability to resist the addictive spit of the red vampires for a short time for example. In effect you are transforming someone slightly, or at the very least it is possible to get this effect. So the question is: just exactly which kinds of transformations are legal?

[Slife]

Or grafting ectoplasmic wings onto yourself so you can fly (admittedly, you'd need to practice beforehand to be able to use them, but it's simply amazing how well the human mind can adapt to new wetware.)

Or, for that matter, wolverine style claws/webbed feet for swimming/thickened skin/exoskeleton/enhanced fingernails.  Or modification of hair color, facial features, skin color.  Temporarily adding what looks like fat around your waist would be relatively easy.  Disguises ahoy!

Advanced study would be risky things that mess around with organs, like temporary gills or poison spurs.  But you shouldn't really need to do those, since a waterbreathing potion would work just as well, and poisoned ankle spurs are only used by platypii, so they can't be too useful.

And notice that you're not robbing anybody of their freedom, or putting anyone's life at risk.  No modification of the brain, no modification of preexisting tissue, no transformation without consent, and no questions of morality (Making a hang-glider out of ectoplasm is OK, adding wings is just taking it to the next level). 

Admittedly, transforming yourself is only covered under the law if the warden takes an extremely liberal interpretation of it ("transform another" isn't quite relevant).  Unfortunately, wardens typically do have broad views of illegal activity.

[DrygonDM]

Quote from: iago on June 20, 2007, 01:27:54 PM

Can you think of any grey areas where accidental transformations might occur?

What Tera West was doing, is indeed a Grey Area as far as the Laws were concerned.
(1) She did not kill anyone. (2) She did not transform them; she taught them to transform themselves. She also made sure to teach them to “return to themselves”. This meant that they would not be stuck as wolves. (3) She did not invade their minds
(4) She did not Enthrall them, or even use Blackmail; they were willing participants.
(5) She did not go beyond the borders of Death. (6) She did not Walk against the Stream of Time. (7) She did not open any of the Outer Gates.

So, she did not actually break any of the Laws. Which is why Harry never reported her to the Council.

This also answers taralon’s querry if Harry did it: If he used his own power to change them, or gave them Hexenwolf belts then he would be guilty, if he trained them the same way that Tera West did, he would not be guilty.

can you think of any grey areas where accidental transformations might occur? What about transformations that aren't into animal forms -- twisting someone's body (perhaps robbing them of the use of their limbs), but still leaving them a thinking person?

Proven Guilty showed us a little of what can happen when a Magus/Warlock does things to anyone else. Even the best intended alterations to another person, especially against their will, can cause them a world of hurt. But let’s say that this time they were willing, there are way to many unknowns about the Human Body that even a skilled Surgeon would not be able to tell you all the side affects of skin grafting, much less the magical version of plastic surgery.

Personally, I think it would be a bad idea at best, a breach of the Third Law at worst. A person could get hooked on the transformations, the way people get hooked on plastic surgery and have themselves worked on to the point that they ruin their looks and/or their health.

What are we doing, now?" Bob sniggered. "More weight-loss potions?"

"Look, Bob," I said. "That was only to get me through a rough month. Someone's got to pay the rent around here."

"All right," Bob said smugly. "You going to get into breast enhancement, then? I'm telling you, that's where the money is."

"That isn't what magic is for, Bob. How petty can you get?"

"Ah," Bob said, his eye lights flickering. "The question is, how pretty can you get them? You aren't a half-bad wizard, Dresden. You should think about how grateful all those beautiful women will be."

I snorted and started cleaning off a space on the center table, stacking things up to one side. "You know, Bob, some of us aren't obsessed with sex."

Again, any living creature’s body is impossibly complex, and changing a person’s body to another creature’s body form can have a lot of “oops” potential.
I suppose that it is possible for Harry to have done the ‘breast enhancement’ potion business, but there are no guarantees that the effects would truly be permanent. Just like there were no guarantees that the “weight loss” potions were permanent – they would still be suggested to switch to a healthy diet, and to exercise regularly to keep the weight off.

White Night Spoiler
[quote auther=taralon link=topic=3593.msg84734#msg84734 date =1182387860]

White Night Spoiler (Highlight with your mouse to read)

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There also seems to be another possible transformation, that of a Wizard into a different shape.  Textev in White Night seems to indicate it might be possible (Molly saying that he's refused to teach her how to turn into animals yet rather than just flat out saying it isn't doable).

There may be a possible grey in the area of a newly minted mage.  Say like Molly.  What if her powers had manifested themselves as her being able to change her friends into werewolf like animals and then back.  As a breaker of one of the laws, she would be subjected the same punishment she got, but through proving she had no intent to injury as happened in White Night she might have just been put under the Doom

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Actually, I would see this as a variation of what happened in Proven Guilty when Molly used Mind Magic to “cure” her friends of their drug addition. Rosy might have had problems remembering to not crawl around on the floor, and sniff people to identify them. Where Nelson might have ended up refusing to eat anything except dog food, or worse - insisting on hunting for his dinner…..!!.....

The grey area is this: what if a person wants to be transformed? I don't think that Harry has ever encountered such a thing, and in fact the werewolf belts from FOOL MOON give the impression that a person who is transformed may lose their sense of self. However, suppose a situation comes up where a character wants to be transformed for some reason? Perhaps the group needs a person to be able to fly to the top of a cliff to grab an item up there and a player volunteers to be turned into a large bird to accomplish the task?

I'm not saying that I would allow such an action in my Dresden campaign, but I really hate to fall back on the "sorry, but it's a rule" defense in order to dis-allow a clever action proposed by a player.

Again, if there are learning to use magic to change themselves into another “natural creature” and back again, this should not really be a problem.

Or grafting ectoplasmic wings onto yourself so you can fly (admittedly, you'd need to practice beforehand to be able to use them, but it's simply amazing how well the human mind can adapt to new wetware.)

Or, for that matter, wolverine style claws/webbed feet for swimming/thickened skin/exoskeleton/enhanced fingernails.  Or modification of hair color, facial features, skin color.  Temporarily adding what looks like fat around your waist would be relatively easy.  Disguises ahoy!

I actually think that ectoplasm is simply considered a tool, and so long as it does not do permanent harm to any living “mortal” – of which Wizards technically are a part of – then it is alright. Adding an Ectoplasmic addition that last only for the duration of the spell, is fine. Changing a person’s body to get the same affect, is ileagle.

I think whosit or whatsit has a point.  Hunter-spirits might not all unleash the darker side of humanity.  I'm sure Injun Joe could turn you into a fine racoon if you had the mind to.  and the Hexen Wolf belts were given with evil intentions like in exchange for you soul, but I think that Harry, with Bobs help, make a "anchor" to keep a practisioner safe.  True he would be hunted down and killed by the white counsel but hey, what life without risk? 

The Hexenwolf belts that Harry saw showed that these Hunter-spirits tend to blend their thoughts with those of the person that they are “helping”.
I suppose that if the Wizard found “Friendly” Hunter-spirits - like the spirits of true wolves (remember that wolves are not inherently evil, but angry wolves are driven towards killing) - then it would be possible to create a non-harmful Hexenwolf. I would say that this would still break the Second Law, and if either of them got caught they would be killed.

Perhaps as a training guide? Something to allow the young Wizard to get the “feel” of the new body, and then shown how to duplicate this on their own ??.....