Newbie to the game: Non-Evil Necromancer

[Mr. Ghostbuster]

The Lawbreaker stunt is supposed to be mandatory for a reason. I represents the slippery slope of dark magic and the whole theme of choice vs. nature which is a HUGE theme in both the books and a game. Break too many laws and you stop being a person and become a monster, loosing your free will and becoming a slave to your nature. I personally believe it should not be ignored, it cheapens the game and whats at stake.

But, you know what? In the end its your game. Do what you (and your group) want.

[Sanctaphrax]

I disagree, actually. Being in debt to the mob (or otherwise chained by your obligations to others) is, both mechanically and thematically, at least as much of a way to represent a lack of free will as being a more dangerous/worse person. Indeed, I'd argue it's more of an imposition on your free will, since it actually keeps you from doing as you'd like, while the 'Killing Your Problems' one just defines what you like/want.

But if you're going to go by that definition of free will, then Lawbreaker doesn't actually necessarily involve a loss of free will.

Sure, you're down 1 Refresh...but the mob is dead! They won't mess with you now! +1.3 virtual Refresh worth of free will!

I dunno, I feel like that definition denies the entire point of the Lawbreaker concept.

The Lawbreaker stunt is supposed to be mandatory for a reason. I represents the slippery slope of dark magic and the whole theme of choice vs. nature which is a HUGE theme in both the books and a game. Break too many laws and you stop being a person and become a monster, loosing your free will and becoming a slave to your nature. I personally believe it should not be ignored, it cheapens the game and whats at stake.

But, you know what? In the end its your game. Do what you (and your group) want.

This comment bugs me.

Feels like you're saying, "do what you like, but bear in mind that if you don't do it my way you're doing it wrong".

Plus you don't provide any actual reason to use that particular mechanism to represent the loss of free will. So you haven't given an actual reason to keep Lawbreaker mandatory.

[Deadmanwalking]

But if you're going to go by that definition of free will, then Lawbreaker doesn't actually necessarily involve a loss of free will.

Sure, you're down 1 Refresh...but the mob is dead! They won't mess with you now! +1.3 virtual Refresh worth of free will!

I dunno, I feel like that definition denies the entire point of the Lawbreaker concept.

See, that's the thing, lowered Refresh really does mean less Free Will, on both a thematic and mechanical level. What you want to do (which should be based on Aspects to some degree, but is freely chosen) is mercilessly replaced by what you are driven to do with no ability to resist those impulses (as you have fewer and fewer Fate Points to resist compels).

Or to put it another way: I'd say the change from "In Debt To The Mob" to "I Solve My Problems By Killing" is, call it +.2 free will. You pair that with a -1, that's still -.8...as you have become slightly freer in one sense, but much less so in another, as you have become much more a slave to your impulses than you ever were to the mob.

The changing Aspects are a good thing and neatly reflect becoming a worse person, more of a monster in the classic sense, but they do nothing to make you a slave to your monstrousness like Lawbreaker Stunts do. A person with Refresh 12 and a list of awful Aspects is still in control of himself. He can choose not to do or be what his nature asks him to do. The same guy with Refresh 1? He's not able to resist and must do what all his awful impulses ask of him.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm not gonna argue specific decimal values, but let it be noted that I was going to until I realized how painful that would be for everyone involved.

I disagree with your conception of Refresh, because characters don't actually get to spend their own Fate Points. Take my mob kidnapping example: refusing the Compel could prevent the kidnapping. And spending a Fate Point can Declare things that your character doesn't interact with.

So while Refresh does correspond generally to free will, it's not terribly exact. Even with 12 Refresh, you might still be a slave to corruption if your Aspects have been reshaped the right (wrong) way. Those Aspects reflect what you are and what your nature makes you do much more than your Refresh does.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm not gonna argue specific decimal values, but let it be noted that I was going to until I realized how painful that would be for everyone involved.

Oh, good. Mine was entirely arbitrary simply to express the point that I thought the nature of an Aspect quite a bit less important than a point of Refresh free-will wise.

I disagree with your conception of Refresh, because characters don't actually get to spend their own Fate Points. Take my mob kidnapping example: refusing the Compel could prevent the kidnapping. And spending a Fate Point can Declare things that your character doesn't interact with.

That's certainly true, but 'doesn't always' and 'never' are different. Every time a player spends a Fate Point to resist a Compel to do something specific that's both the player doing something and the character exercising his free will to resist his impulses. The point crosses the line and becomes part of the character and not merely the player at that point...and the higher his Refresh the more often he can do that. And thus the more free will he has.

So while Refresh does correspond generally to free will, it's not terribly exact.

No, not exact, but close enough for government work. 

Even with 12 Refresh, you might still be a slave to corruption if your Aspects have been reshaped the right (wrong) way.

No, he won't be. He may be completely corrupt but he chooses to be that way he could always, always, choose again and be otherwise. He can have moments of humanity, mercy, any of those things he feels like. He can be a whole other person, for a while anyway, simply by deciding to be. Will he? Maybe not. But because he can he is not a slave to his dark side, just very in touch with it.

Those Aspects reflect what you are and what your nature makes you do much more than your Refresh does.

Yes, they do.  But they don't reflect at all the degree to which you have no choice but to do it. That's free will, it's what Refresh is for, and it's part of what (canonically) Lawbreaker takes away. Warlocks are compulsive, even if they want to, they simply can't stop and that's part of the horror of them, and why I like Lawbreaker costing Refresh and think it's, if by no means necessary, at least very desirable if you want to emulate the books properly*.




*Note: This is far from the only thing to use the DFRPG for, IMO. It works very well for a lot of urban fantasy (and pretty well for some other stuff), large parts of which you should scrap Lawbreaker entirely for, again for proper emulation. The same for many homebrewed worlds. I'm purely talking about if you're using it for the Dresden Files world.

[Oblyss]

Might anyone be interested in offering some suggestions on how to put my items together? Or does the current set up look okay? I'm also interested in some rote suggestions if anyone wants.

[Deadmanwalking]

Well, item-wise, to some degree it depends on whether you have Kemmlerian Necromancy or Lawbreaker or both...so that's an issue, especially with your Specialty and Focus Item.

Aside from that, well, your defensive item isn't noted right, it needs a number of uses per session noted, and equally importantly, can be used for either Block or Armor on each individual use, for example:

Robes (8 shift Block or Armor 4, 5 times per session) (6 item slots)

This is also a hell of a protective item, and debatably overpowered in some games, so check with your GM if it's cool. If it is, then it's a solid choice.

In terms of Rotes, with 5 slots and Spirit as your element of choice I'd go with a basic defensive spell, a Veil, an attack spell using and requiring your Focus, a maneuver using and requiring your Focus, and an attack spell not using your focus just in case. That covers most of your basic contingencies pretty well.

[Oblyss]

Well, item-wise, to some degree it depends on whether you have Kemmlerian Necromancy or Lawbreaker or both...so that's an issue, especially with your Specialty and Focus Item.

Aside from that, well, your defensive item isn't noted right, it needs a number of uses per session noted, and equally importantly, can be used for either Block or Armor on each individual use, for example:

Robes (8 shift Block or Armor 4, 3 times per session) (6 item slots)

This is also a hell of a protective item, and debatably overpowered in some games, so check with your GM if it's cool. If it is, then it's a solid choice.

I see, well currently it's an "on all the time" item. I dropped a load of enchanted item slots into it, I think I did the math correctly but not positive on that. To get this I set one enchanted item slot aside for the item itself, then with Lore 5, I dropped 3 enchanted item slots into that to bring it up to strength 8 from 5. Then halving that gets you an item that is on all the time right?

As for my speciality and focus item, those were just what I threw down at the moment. I am not dead set on them, but I figured kemmler works better with spirit. And yes, my character has both Kemmler and lawbreaker(fifth) now, we did end up moving up to 11 refresh to make it fit better.

I'll definitely bring it up with my GM, I'm glad to hear I did okay with it. The other thing is our party isn't very big, so I'm definitely trying to keep my eye out for things to get the group by in it. I don't really know how these games work yet, so maybe I am being overly cautious.

[Deadmanwalking]

I see, well currently it's an "on all the time" item. I dropped a load of enchanted item slots into it, I think I did the math correctly but not positive on that. To get this I set one enchanted item slot aside for the item itself, then with Lore 5, I dropped 3 enchanted item slots into that to bring it up to strength 8 from 5. Then halving that gets you an item that is on all the time right?

Uh...the current rules have no proviso for always on items (which strikes me as a good thing, IMO). If you're using a version that does (likely the Early Bird PDF, which has such rules, but is very very obsolete)...then that doesn't quite work. See, Armor is always half the shifts of the effect, so you're halving 8 twice to get an armor rating. Or to put it another way, it'd be a permanent 4 shift block or permanent Armor 2.

If you've only spent 4 items, you've got an open Slot, though.

As for my speciality and focus item, those were just what I threw down at the moment. I am not dead set on them, but I figured kemmler works better with spirit. And yes, my character has both Kemmler and lawbreaker(fifth) now, we did end up moving up to 11 refresh to make it fit better.

Oh, Spirit's definitely your go-to element here. And, if you have Kermmlerian Necromancy, Power's the specialty you want, since your Necromancy control bonus can be used on appropriately death-y Evocations. So, that being the case, you've got a good setup. Though bear in mind that free slot.

I'll definitely bring it up with my GM, I'm glad to hear I did okay with it. The other thing is our party isn't very big, so I'm definitely trying to keep my eye out for things to get the group by in it. I don't really know how these games work yet, so maybe I am being overly cautious.

Well, as a permanent item isn't going to be nearly as potentially powerful. Or cool. Indeed, you'd be better off just getting some kevlar and using the slots elsewhere. One reason the permanent item rules were removed from the current version of the game.

[Oblyss]

Uh...the current rules have no proviso for always on items (which strikes me as a good thing, IMO). If you're using a version that does (likely the Early Bird PDF, which has such rules, but is very very obsolete)...then that doesn't quite work. See, Armor is always half the shifts of the effect, so you're halving 8 twice to get an armor rating. Or to put it another way, it'd be a permanent 4 shift block or permanent Armor 2.

I'm a little confused then, my book says this.

The uses-per-session limitation may be
removed by halving the base strength, rounded
down; so if you have Good (+3) Lore, you could
create a one-use-per-session item with an effect
strength of Good (+3), or an always-on item
with an effect strength of Average (+1).

I'm curious if we're using an outdated rule book now. I brought this up to my GM and we're looking into it. Mine says "OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0a"

If you've only spent 4 items, you've got an open Slot, though.

Oh, Spirit's definitely your go-to element here. And, if you have Kermmlerian Necromancy, Power's the specialty you want, since your Necromancy control bonus can be used on appropriately death-y Evocations. So, that being the case, you've got a good setup. Though bear in mind that free slot.

Well, as a permanent item isn't going to be nearly as potentially powerful. Or cool. Indeed, you'd be better off just getting some kevlar and using the slots elsewhere. One reason the permanent item rules were removed from the current version of the game.

Okay thanks for the tips, my GM said I should knock the armor down to 2. So I'll do that. I also have to figure out what my other items should be in that case, since I have a lot of free slots now any suggestions on where to put them towards? Also for spirit evocations using necromancy control, what sort of justification do I need for that? Or does it just always work that way?

[Oblyss]

Okay, I found a newer version. The one I had was indeed outdated, the new book says this.

You may increase the number of uses per
session by one by reducing the base strength
of the item by one. So if you have Good (+3)
Lore, you could create an enchanted item with
an effect strength of Good (+3) that you can
use once per session, or an item with an effect
strength of Average (+1) that you can use three
times per session. When doing this, the base
strength of the item may not go below 1.

[Deadmanwalking]

Okay, I found a newer version. The one I had was indeed outdated, the new book says this.

Yup, that's the current version. With that and your 6 slots you can make the item I suggested above (which I'll repeat here):

Robes (8 shift Block or Armor 4, 5 times per session) (6 item slots)

Which is both more powerful, and, IMO, more fun. Less boring anyway.

[Oblyss]

Yup, that's the current version. With that and your 6 slots you can make the item I suggested above (which I'll repeat here):

Robes (8 shift Block or Armor 4, 5 times per session) (6 item slots)

Which is both more powerful, and, IMO, more fun. Less boring anyway.

Oh sorry, I saw that though my GM said they want me to reduce the armor down to 2. So right now I have it set up like this.
Robes/Coat
   (4 shift Block or Armor 2, 5 times per session)  (2 item slots)

Is that correct?

Edit: The GM said under these rules the armor 4 is okay since it's limited use.

[Sanctaphrax]

Every time a player spends a Fate Point to resist a Compel to do something specific that's both the player doing something and the character exercising his free will to resist his impulses.

No, it can be just the player.

Really, there's no reason to require the character be involved. Maybe refusing the Compel prevents the issue from arising in the first place. Maybe your character gives into the impulse, but because you refused the Compel none of the consequences occur.

Whatever.

[Richard_Chilton]

Okay, I found a newer version. The one I had was indeed outdated, the new book says this.

That was one of the major changes between the pre-release and the final draft.  It can be fun going through the two versions and seeing what else changed.

Then guessing at why it changed.

Richard