Sponsor Debt for Temporary Powers?

[Tedronai]

I would look seriously askance at any player who wanted to create an Item of Power 'on-screen' through the use of a relatively simple ritual.  To me, that's a rather more complicated and involved process than can be pulled off in an afternoon's effort.

[nick012000]

I would look seriously askance at any player who wanted to create an Item of Power 'on-screen' through the use of a relatively simple ritual.  To me, that's a rather more complicated and involved process than can be pulled off in an afternoon's effort.

Well, for something like the Swords of the Cross, sure. For something relatively minor like a Hexenwulf Belt, though, I wouldn't think it'd be too difficult. Harry summoned up Sue without too much difficulty, and Hexenwulf belts are the same basic principle; you're just binding a spirit into a belt rather than the skeleton of a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Granted, the spell I just detailed is probably closer to the werewolf transformation used by the Alphas than that used by a Hexenwulf; it's just bound into an amulet for easy activation rather than practiced over and over until it can be used reflexively.

[Deadmanwalking]

Hmmmm. Well, first off, a necklace is only a +1 Item of Power, you'd need a dragonskin cloak or something to be +2, speaking of which...none of the Tags you list actually explain how he casts the spell. The story of the spell, y'know, what the whole process of making spell declarations is supposed to be about?

So no, I wouldn't allow that. Or any spell that was designed that way. On the other hand, getting your hands on the scale of a Dragon (Contacts), finding the proper ritual in an ancient book to assume a tiny fragment of it's glory (Lore), and a single Scholarship Declaration (any one of your three) to understand how to structure it properly, and I might allow it, yeah. Spells must be thematically appropriate in order to work. Indeed, with Thaumaturgy, that and time are their only real limitations, so you damn well better enforce them.

I'd also just generally be very skeptical of applying Item of Power or Human Form to any temporary power set. Their disadvantages are mostly long-term, and I'm very skeptical of allowing them on such a temporary thing. But that's a personal thing not the rules. I'd also be very skeptical of any PC grabbing Beast Change on a temporary basis without some sort of possession going on (ala Hexenwulfen, and likely including Demonic Copilot), simply because it's really hard to justify any other way.

So, in short, yes, you can do what you're talking about (at the costs in question), but the item needs to be more obvious and you need better thematics for your Thaumaturgy to actually work. And you need an explanation for Beast Change, which you are seriously lacking.

[UmbraLux]

This is a total of five Aspects invoked/tagged, for a total of five Fate Point-equivalents; so the enchantment on the necklace would last for five scenes or the next noon, whichever came first, right?

No.  Assuming you've managed to research, acquire ingredients, prepare, and cast the spell* prior to invoking aspects, it might...though duration needs corrected / clarified.  I'm not sure where your duration of 'noon' came from - dusk and dawn are the thresholds.  It's also explicitly stated that you can only buy temporary powers for one scene.  (YS92)

*The spell itself isn't going to be easy.  You'll need the appropriate symbolic links to start with...good luck getting away from a dragon with anything useable as a symbolic link back to him.  Harry went through some fairly extreme measures to get a link back, what do you think the dragon might be willing to do?

Edit:  To make it worse, you'd need a new link every time you cast the spell.  Good luck keeping a dragon captive... 

[nick012000]

No.  Assuming you've managed to research, acquire ingredients, prepare, and cast the spell* prior to invoking aspects, it might...though duration needs corrected / clarified.  I'm not sure where your duration of 'noon' came from - dusk and dawn are the thresholds.

Changes, when Lea makes a some magical outfits for Susan and Harry, and when Harry makes a snark about hoping they won't disappear at midnight, she responds with something to the effect of "Of course not; what do you take me for, a Summer faerie? They'll last until noon." This implies that Seelie/Unseelie magic lasts until midnight and noon, respectively, rather than until dusk/dawn like most thaumaturgy does.

It's also explicitly stated that you can only buy temporary powers for one scene.  (YS92)

Yeah, but I figured you could keep buying the same Temporary powers over and over again each scene. It adds up quick, if you're trying for anything more than a power worth more than one or two Refresh.

*The spell itself isn't going to be easy.  You'll need the appropriate symbolic links to start with...good luck getting away from a dragon with anything useable as a symbolic link back to him.  Harry went through some fairly extreme measures to get a link back, what do you think the dragon might be willing to do?

The symbolic link is himself; the dragon he turns into is a manifestation/personification of the predatory and possessive instincts that come with the Mantle of the Winter Knight.

EDIT:

Hmmmm. Well, first off, a necklace is only a +1 Item of Power, you'd need a dragonskin cloak or something to be +2,

*checks Item of Power* Hmm, I think you might be right. It's based on whether or not it's concealable, though, not size, so a ring should work. You can't conceal them when you're wearing them openly on your finger, after all. A pin for his suit-collar or tie might also work. Or belts, if he wants to just rip off the Hexenwulf spells.

speaking of which...none of the Tags you list actually explain how he casts the spell. The story of the spell, y'know, what the whole process of making spell declarations is supposed to be about?

Hmm? He sits down, and does a bunch of calculations working out the physical principles of the thing. Then he builds the image in his mind, whips up a circle of ice with Evocation, and pulls on the power of Winter through his Mantle to power the ritual, and the instincts of his mantle to understand how to use his new form, and focuses them through the mental images he has and ties them all off in the item he's using to store the spell.

So no, I wouldn't allow that. Or any spell that was designed that way. On the other hand, getting your hands on the scale of a Dragon (Contacts), finding the proper ritual in an ancient book to assume a tiny fragment of it's glory (Lore), and a single Scholarship Declaration (any one of your three) to understand how to structure it properly, and I might allow it, yeah. Spells must be thematically appropriate in order to work. Indeed, with Thaumaturgy, that and time are their only real limitations, so you damn well better enforce them.

It's not an actual Dragon, so much as the image of a lower-case dragon as a representation of the possessive and predatory aspects of Winter.

I'd also just generally be very skeptical of applying Item of Power or Human Form to any temporary power set. Their disadvantages are mostly long-term, and I'm very skeptical of allowing them on such a temporary thing. But that's a personal thing not the rules. I'd also be very skeptical of any PC grabbing Beast Change on a temporary basis without some sort of possession going on (ala Hexenwulfen, and likely including Demonic Copilot), simply because it's really hard to justify any other way.

Becoming a personification of the worst of the Winter Knight's instincts wouldn't be enough for you?

So, in short, yes, you can do what you're talking about (at the costs in question), but the item needs to be more obvious and you need better thematics for your Thaumaturgy to actually work. And you need an explanation for Beast Change, which you are seriously lacking.

He gets big and strong (increasing Might), and overwhelmed by the instincts of his Mantle (decreasing Scholarship and increasing Fists, Survival, and Stealth), dulling his thought processes. Also, he doesn't have hands anymore, dropping Craftsmanship, Driving, and Weapons to 0.

[Deadmanwalking]

Changes, when Lea makes a some magical outfits for Susan and Harry, and when Harry makes a snark about hoping they won't disappear at midnight, she responds with something to the effect of "Of course not; what do you take me for, a Summer faerie? They'll last until noon." This implies that Seelie/Unseelie magic lasts until midnight and noon, respectively, rather than until dusk/dawn like most thaumaturgy does.

Cold Days seems to dispute this (it has a spell cast by Mab end at dawn). I suspect it's a specific limitation of Greater Glamours rather than Thaumaturgy, which is what makes the most sense for her to be using to make armor anyway.

Yeah, but I figured you could keep buying the same Temporary powers over and over again each scene. It adds up quick, if you're trying for anything more than a power worth more than one or two Refresh.

I'd allow it. That part anyway. See my previous post.

The symbolic link is himself; the dragon he turns into is a manifestation/personification of the predatory and possessive instincts that come with the Mantle of the Winter Knight.

That's potentially doable. He still needs a better spell prep than "I know how the mechanics would work."

[UmbraLux]

Yeah, but I figured you could keep buying the same Temporary powers over and over again each scene. It adds up quick, if you're trying for anything more than a power worth more than one or two Refresh.

I think that's against the spirit of the text and probably the letter.  Besides, you'd need the justification each time as well...casting a spell in this case.  So you'd end up with it every other scene at best and each scene in between would be about casting the spell.  It'd get old fast I think.

The symbolic link is himself; the dragon he turns into is a manifestation/personification of the predatory and possessive instincts that come with the Mantle of the Winter Knight.

Weak, I don't buy it.  Whether or not your group does is up to them.

[nick012000]

Cold Days seems to dispute this (it has a spell cast by Mab end at dawn).

Are you referring to how

(click to show/hide)

Mab barred anything from Faerie entering the mortal world for the rest of the night? Was that a spell, or just Mab using her political power to make it illegal for faeries to do so?

[Deadmanwalking]

EDIT:*checks Item of Power* Hmm, I think you might be right. It's based on whether or not it's concealable, though, not size, so a ring should work. You can't conceal them when you're wearing them openly on your finger, after all. A pin for his suit-collar or tie might also work. Or belts, if he wants to just rip off the Hexenwulf spells.

Gloves can go over a ring. Pins are easily concealed in a pocket. A belt is invisible under a jacket. It needs to be big enough that you physically can't just put it into your pocket or under your jacket to hide it to be a +2. A suit works, a walking stick or cane works, a ring does not.

And a Hexenwulf belt is explicitly only +1, check out OW if you don't believe me.

Hmm? He sits down, and does a bunch of calculations working out the physical principles of the thing. Then he builds the image in his mind, whips up a circle of ice with Evocation, and pulls on the power of Winter through his Mantle to power the ritual, and the instincts of his mantle to understand how to use his new form, and focuses them through the mental images he has and ties them all off in the item he's using to store the spell.

That's really shaky. Getting all your Declarations from one skill is a little weak (even if its Lore, and especially if its anything else). Building a good circle should get you a Lore Declaration if you do it right, though.

It's not an actual Dragon, so much as the image of a lower-case dragon as a representation of the possessive and predatory aspects of Winter.

I'm...really not sure those would manifest as a dragon, or at least not without some kind of link to an actual one. I'd be more inclined to say that a spell designed to tap into the Mantle would grant claws and possibly a strength boost, but shapeshifting isn't really within its normal purview.

Becoming a personification of the worst of the Winter Knight's instincts wouldn't be enough for you?

Eh. That might do it...but I'm still a little skeptical. A big deal is made about how hard it is to learn to move and fight in a new body.

He gets big and strong (increasing Might), and overwhelmed by the instincts of his Mantle (decreasing Scholarship and increasing Fists, Survival, and Stealth), dulling his thought processes. Also, he doesn't have hands anymore, dropping Craftsmanship, Driving, and Weapons to 0.

Again, they make a pretty big deal about how learning how to operate as a quadruped or with an extra set of limbs is a long demanding process barring certain very specific kinds of intervention. One I doubt the Winter Knight's mantle is actually familiar with, especially since it's definitionally always held by a mortal.

Are you referring to how

(click to show/hide)

Mab barred anything from Faerie entering the mortal world for the rest of the night? Was that a spell, or just Mab using her political power to make it illegal for faeries to do so?

Yes. I'm actually re-reading it right now, and Harry explicitly mentions it as a spell. And about how Dawn breaks it. So I think the Greater Glamours theory must be what was going on there.

[InFerrumVeritas]

No way in any hell would I allow things like Human Form and IoP to be used temporarily.  Temporary powers should be paid for at full cost.  No discounts.  You're already getting away with not paying for all sorts of things (Refresh, potentially Fate Points).

Don't you have to take yourself out for transformations?  So even a -1 refresh power (like Beast Change) costs, at minimum, complexity 9 spell (possibly 7 if you're willing to spend a FP).  If you have Endurance at Good (as is more common than Mediocre), then you're looking at 15 shifts.  More than most enchanted items, good for a scene and leaves you with a consequence (and that consequence used up during what is probably combat). 

Add 3 complexity per additional refresh if you're creating aspects to tag, or spend quite some time (a scene each) for gathering spell components and declarations.  Or spend a fate point per refresh.  This adds up quickly.  And still 13 shifts if you're paying for everything.  Not a small spell by any means (Lore 5 doesn't even get you halfway there).

Math: Endurance 0, 5 shifts to overcome best possible roll, 2 shifts for stress (two boxes), 2 shifts for mild consequence (and free tag?), and one more to take out. 
Endurance 3, 8 shifts to overcome best possible roll, 4 shifts for stress (four boxes), 2 shifts for mild consequence (and free tag?), and one more to take out.

EDIT: You'd also still have the stress you dealt yourself.

[Deadmanwalking]

You can always choose what skill you target, and what Stress track (at least of Physical and Mental). When doing it on yourself, you can do so aiming at a skill at 0, assuming you can justify it (not that hard for most characters), and you never have to take consequences, or Stress, if you just concede...so taking yourself out is usually a bit less than that, and leaves no Stress or Consequences.

The minimum I'm coming up with is 5+Stress Boxers+1 (so 9 or 10 for most people)...assuming your GM won't let you fail resistance rolls by, y'know, not resisting. If they allow that (and I would, you don't need to roll Athletics to dodge when you shoot yourself in the head, same thing), it's just Stress Boxes +1.

Either way, though, that's only complexity 5-10. So not a huge difference. The hard part comes from all the damn Tags you need to accumulate to turn into anything cool.
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I'm with you on the IoP and Human Form thing, though.

[Tedronai]

Gloves can go over a ring. Pins are easily concealed in a pocket. A belt is invisible under a jacket. It needs to be big enough that you physically can't just put it into your pocket or under your jacket to hide it to be a +2. A suit works, a walking stick or cane works, a ring does not.

For my own games, I tend not to hold strictly to this.  I keep it as the 'general rule', describing most IoPs, but some are special, even as compared to such a special group as IoPs.  Some, while small enough to conceal physically, simply refuse to escape notice.  This might be as a product of their Purpose, or it might simply be a product of the immense power they hold.  In such instances, I judge them on their effective concealment potential, rather than their physical limitations.

[Sanctaphrax]

As noted previously, it's in the book. That just clarifies what the slightly unclear wording there means.

He says he would "suggest". That doesn't sound like a clarification of the RAW to me, it sounds like a possible way to adjudicate things.

And even if it was a grand statement of rules, it doesn't matter. The rules are what the books say. Expecting people to trawl the net for the Real Rules is just silly.

In short, the Fred quote is pretty meaningless.

Well, the issue with shapechanging using Tags with Thaumaturgy is that that's an immensely time consuming thing to do. Like, hours or days, not minutes (for anything beyond a couple or three tags anyway).

This isn't actually true.

Five-minute rituals are appropriate mechanically and narratively.

One would assume that bigger rituals would take longer, but as it happens the rules don't actually say that...it's a known issue with the Thaumaturgy system. The book provides no real guidance when it comes to Thaumaturgy's time-scale, so people are left to make things up based on what makes sense, and not everybody agrees on what makes sense.

And doing calculations in your head is a reasonable Declaration, it just becomes broken when added to the possibility of paying Refresh costs with tags. Which indicates that paying Refresh costs with tags is unfair, to my mind.

[Deadmanwalking]

He says he would "suggest". That doesn't sound like a clarification of the RAW to me, it sounds like a possible way to adjudicate things.

The game is 'unfinished', making the marginalia as much RAW as the rest of the book. The marginalia say you can do it, and he clarifies what he means by that (in case it was unclear).

And even if it was a grand statement of rules, it doesn't matter. The rules are what the books say. Expecting people to trawl the net for the Real Rules is just silly.

In short, the Fred quote is pretty meaningless.

I actually agree with you for the most part...but this isn't an after-the-fact rules change or something, it's an explanation for what a slightly unclear bit of rules text means. If there are multiple textual interpretations and the author tells you which he meant...that's clearly the way the rules work.

This isn't actually true.

Five-minute rituals are appropriate mechanically and narratively.

One would assume that bigger rituals would take longer, but as it happens the rules don't actually say that...it's a known issue with the Thaumaturgy system. The book provides no real guidance when it comes to Thaumaturgy's time-scale, so people are left to make things up based on what makes sense, and not everybody agrees on what makes sense.

True to some extent...but Fate in general is supposed to be more narrative than anything. Things take as long as they should take dramatically speaking. For anything big, that's quite a while. You can handle it another way, sure, but all kinds of things start getting broken if you do. Tags to get temporary powers are the least of it. I mean, if you allow five minutes of figuring to result in three or four Declarations just from the thought process, any player who's actually creative with Thaumaturgy will completely wreck your game casually even without these rules. Certainly I could.

And doing calculations in your head is a reasonable Declaration, it just becomes broken when added to the possibility of paying Refresh costs with tags. Which indicates that paying Refresh costs with tags is unfair, to my mind.

Multiple declarations for figuring out stuff in your head, all with the same skill, with no other Declarations at all are unreasonable as the sum total of any spell. You need a better story and more justification than that. Now, as part of a larger ritual, sure, they're fine. The problem here is in the methodology, not the goals.

[Sanctaphrax]

The game is 'unfinished', making the marginalia as much RAW as the rest of the book. The marginalia say you can do it, and he clarifies what he means by that (in case it was unclear).

The marginalia imply it without directly stating it, in contradiction of the rules given earlier in the book. That's hardly ironclad.

I actually agree with you for the most part...but this isn't an after-the-fact rules change or something, it's an explanation for what a slightly unclear bit of rules text means. If there are multiple textual interpretations and the author tells you which he meant...that's clearly the way the rules work.

Nope.

In order for the author's word to have any effect on the meaning of the rules, it would have to hold some special weight. Which it does not.

Look, we aren't mind readers and we can't be expected to track down the author's intentions when the rules are vague. So intention is best ignored. If the rules are unclear, acknowledge that and play with the interpretation that makes for the best game.

True to some extent...but Fate in general is supposed to be more narrative than anything. Things take as long as they should take dramatically speaking. For anything big, that's quite a while. You can handle it another way, sure, but all kinds of things start getting broken if you do. Tags to get temporary powers are the least of it. I mean, if you allow five minutes of figuring to result in three or four Declarations just from the thought process, any player who's actually creative with Thaumaturgy will completely wreck your game casually even without these rules. Certainly I could.

The problems are that a) there's no real agreement on how long things should take dramatically speaking and b) the vagueness basically forces you to play freeform when doing big rituals. And freeform play makes all of those (mostly very good) Thaumaturgy rules totally pointless because you're barely using them, while ruining the whole powergaming experience.

And three or four Declarations in five minutes doesn't actually break much. At least, my experience indicates that it does't actually break much. It's powerful, but not ridiculously so.

And yes, my players are creative with Thaumaturgy.

(Recovery abuse is pretty broken, though.)

Multiple declarations for figuring out stuff in your head, all with the same skill, with no other Declarations at all are unreasonable as the sum total of any spell. You need a better story and more justification than that. Now, as part of a larger ritual, sure, they're fine. The problem here is in the methodology, not the goals.

I wouldn't let people do them all with the same skill, but a five minute ritual with +6 complexity from Declarations is generally okay with me. Allowing that just means that people will use Thaumaturgy frequently and in a variety of ways.

Now, people do indeed take rituals a bit for granted when you let them do them fast. That's okay, they spent Refresh on them. It doesn't damage the game if they divine the murderer's name or summon up a flying chariot to cross a chasm.

But if they give themselves Inhuman Recovery all the bloody time then it does damage the game. So you can't let people take power-granting for granted.