Author Topic: thresholds?  (Read 7795 times)

Offline Taran

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2012, 03:15:42 PM »
There's a difference between "Immune to magic" and "So powerful you might as well be immune to magic", but to your average mortal spell-slinger, it'll be pretty hard to tell the difference. I'm just saying that the former is exclusive to Outsiders, while the latter is something pretty much every Supernatural Heavyweight possesses.

Except that Ogres, per OW, have the former and they are not Outsiders.  So I wouldn't say that it is exclusive to outsiders.  I also wouldn't put the average Ogre that possesses Immunity Magic as a Supernatural Heavyweight.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2012, 03:31:42 PM »
There's a difference between "Immune to magic" and "So powerful you might as well be immune to magic", but to your average mortal spell-slinger, it'll be pretty hard to tell the difference. I'm just saying that the former is exclusive to Outsiders, while the latter is something pretty much every Supernatural Heavyweight possesses.

This is immune to Ebenezar McCoy. The Blackstaff. A guy who can destroy cities or small nations when he feels like it.
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When he has years to prep. That's clearly immunity, not resistance.

And yet, he never even thinks Outsider. That clearly indicates it's not an 'Outsider only' thing in his head, and who'd know better than him? Okay, the Gatekeeper, but who else?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 03:33:57 PM by Deadmanwalking »

Offline nick012000

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 04:10:40 PM »
This is immune to Ebenezar McCoy. The Blackstaff. A guy who can destroy cities or small nations when he feels like it.
(click to show/hide)
When he has years to prep. That's clearly immunity, not resistance.

And yet, he never even thinks Outsider. That clearly indicates it's not an 'Outsider only' thing in his head, and who'd know better than him? Okay, the Gatekeeper, but who else?
Huh? Talos showed up in Summer Knight, and Eb only showed up briefly in the very beginning of that one, when Harry went to visit the White Council.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2012, 04:18:18 PM »
Huh? Talos showed up in Summer Knight, and Eb only showed up briefly in the very beginning of that one, when Harry went to visit the White Council.

Uh...re-read my post before that one.

I'm referring to Lord Raith, the white King. someone we know was immune to magic (or at least direct magic). His might've been Outsider-based (what with his connections in that area)...but Ebenezar clearly knew he was completely immune to magic, and didn't assume (or apparently even suspect) that it was Outsider based...which strongly implies non-Outsider stuff can have it, since The Blackstaff'd be one of the first people to know that was a telling clue if it was an Outsider-only thing.

Offline nick012000

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2012, 04:21:15 PM »
Uh...re-read my post before that one.

I'm referring to Lord Raith, the white King. someone we know was immune to magic (or at least direct magic). His might've been Outsider-based (what with his connections in that area)...but Ebenezar clearly knew he was completely immune to magic, and didn't assume (or apparently even suspect) that it was Outsider based...which strongly implies non-Outsider stuff can have it, since The Blackstaff'd be one of the first people to know that was a telling clue if it was an Outsider-only thing.
Yeah, but he's also Lord Raith, the leader of a supernatural nation - the exact sort of person you'd expect to be a Supernatural Heavyweight who is so powerful that they're basically immune to magic for all practical purposes. Distinguishing between "Immune to magic" and "so powerful he's almost immune to magic" isn't exactly easy to do, at least in-character.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2012, 04:25:47 PM »
Yeah, but he's also Lord Raith, the leader of a supernatural nation - the exact sort of person you'd expect to be a Supernatural Heavyweight who is so powerful that they're basically immune to magic for all practical purposes. Distinguishing between "Immune to magic" and "so powerful he's almost immune to magic" isn't exactly easy to do, at least in-character.

He's the Blackstaff, man. He's the most powerful (or at least most powerful mortal) offensive spellcaster on Earth, capable of leveling small nations when the mood strikes him, and specialized in killing people exactly like that. And he had years to work on nothing but killing this guy and an extremely personal motivation to do precisely that. If he can't do it, nobody can. Which means immunity.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2012, 07:54:54 PM »
"Immune to magic" [...] is exclusive to Outsiders

Please provide your page reference if you're going to continue asserting this position.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2012, 08:43:55 PM »
Yeah, but he's also Lord Raith, the leader of a supernatural nation - the exact sort of person you'd expect to be a Supernatural Heavyweight who is so powerful that they're basically immune to magic for all practical purposes.
There is no basis for this at all. There is not some threshold beyond which you are "basically immune to magic." Lord Raith directly and explicitly had something special going on with his immunity, and nobody once ever attributes it to something like, "He's the leader of a nation, so of course he has it."
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2012, 09:05:40 PM »
I think he may have been referencing a point beyond which an individual would be functionally immune to the magic of lesser practitioners much in the way that an adult elephant is functionally immune to the venom of most spiders.  It's not that spider venom isn't harmful to the elephant so much as it is that the spider's fangs can't inject enough venom deeply enough into the elephant to produce meaningful results.

Even with that said, the argument claiming sole ownership of more absolute immunity to magic on behalf of outsiders is without any substantive support of which I am aware.  Of course, that might change if nick decides to share his source.  But I doubt it.
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Offline vultur

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2012, 04:57:24 AM »
Also - the grendelkin in "Heorot" is highly resistant to magic. The Scarecrow in PG is highly resistant or immune. Madrigal Raith's ward-cloths made him immune to magic, until Carlos cut them up (from WN).

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 05:04:46 AM »
Also - the grendelkin in "Heorot" is highly resistant to magic. The Scarecrow in PG is highly resistant or immune. Madrigal Raith's ward-cloths made him immune to magic, until Carlos cut them up (from WN).

The Grendelkin and the Scarecrow are good examples, but, in fairness to his point, Madrigal isn't as he was playing with Outsider powers...very possibly including the ward-cloths.

Offline PirateJack

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 05:23:21 AM »
The Grendelkin and the Scarecrow are good examples, but, in fairness to his point, Madrigal isn't as he was playing with Outsider powers...very possibly including the ward-cloths.

You're thinking of Vittorio. Madrigal was a pawn for the Black Council, not a member. The ward cloths could very easily have just been enchanted with a powerful shield, no need for Immunity and the likes.

Also, the prevailing theory for Lord Raith was that he had some sort of Outsider related gizmo that provided his Immunity. If I'm remembering Blood Rites correctly the effects of it are directly compared to the magic absorbing effects of mordite, and Lord Raith is one of the few people we know to have had direct contact with He-Who-Walks-Behind so it's not beyond reasoning that it was Outsider related.

It makes sense to me that Immunity to Magic is more of an Outsider thing, since that's their big schtick. Demons are nasty but impersonal and need ectoplasm to manifest, Fae are tricksy and weak to iron, Vampires can't stand holy stuff and drink blood (White Court aside). Outsiders, on the other hand, don't play by the rules of the Dresdenverse, and they're all but immune to regular magic.

Lord Marshal Talos had to actively use his counterspell/shield spell during the Battle Above Chicago (whichever it was), so my bet is that he was just countering Harry's spells as he cast them, or just shrugging them off, since he was a Sidhe Lord with centuries of experience... I'd put him near the same level as Lea on the magical ability scale, and we all saw how powerful she was at Chitzen Itza. Harry got hilariously lucky when Meryl took him out, really. He didn't stand a chance of taking him on head to head without ruining his surprise.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 05:40:51 AM »
You're thinking of Vittorio. Madrigal was a pawn for the Black Council, not a member. The ward cloths could very easily have just been enchanted with a powerful shield, no need for Immunity and the likes.

The point remains, he was a pawn. They often arm their pawns.

Also, the prevailing theory for Lord Raith was that he had some sort of Outsider related gizmo that provided his Immunity. If I'm remembering Blood Rites correctly the effects of it are directly compared to the magic absorbing effects of mordite, and Lord Raith is one of the few people we know to have had direct contact with He-Who-Walks-Behind so it's not beyond reasoning that it was Outsider related.

This is indisputably true. I address it above. My contention isn't that Lord Raith's magic immunity wasn't Outsider based...it's that nobody ever made the assumption it was Outsider based which they obviously would've if that was the only source. Hell, Ebenezar definitely, and probably Rashid knew of his immunity...if being in contact with Outsiders was the only way to get that they would've known.

It makes sense to me that Immunity to Magic is more of an Outsider thing, since that's their big schtick. Demons are nasty but impersonal and need ectoplasm to manifest, Fae are tricksy and weak to iron, Vampires can't stand holy stuff and drink blood (White Court aside). Outsiders, on the other hand, don't play by the rules of the Dresdenverse, and they're all but immune to regular magic.

I'm perfectly willing to believe it's very common (bordering on well-nigh universal) for Outsiders, and deeply rare aside from them...but it's clearly a theoretically available thing without dealing with them. Every reaction from some of the most knowledgeable people in the world says as much.

Lord Marshal Talos had to actively use his counterspell/shield spell during the Battle Above Chicago (whichever it was), so my bet is that he was just countering Harry's spells as he cast them, or just shrugging them off, since he was a Sidhe Lord with centuries of experience... I'd put him near the same level as Lea on the magical ability scale, and we all saw how powerful she was at Chitzen Itza. Harry got hilariously lucky when Meryl took him out, really. He didn't stand a chance of taking him on head to head without ruining his surprise.

We actually have no evidence he was anywhere near that powerful. It's possible, but a hell of an assumption. He was Aurora's flunky, after all, not Titania's. Lea serves Mab in a similar capacity. I suspect those who serve the Queen's are a whole weight class up on those who serve the Ladies.

And he was trying to stay in-character as an Ogre. It seems unlikely he'd demonstrate a Sidhe-only power when doing that...he didn't know how much Harry knew about the Fae (ie: very little), after all. It seems more likely to me that he was indeed counterspelling under the Glamour and using that to mimic an Ogre's natural immunity.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 06:19:59 AM »
We actually have no evidence he was anywhere near that powerful. It's possible, but a hell of an assumption. He was Aurora's flunky, after all, not Titania's. Lea serves Mab in a similar capacity. I suspect those who serve the Queen's are a whole weight class up on those who serve the Ladies.
It's more than this.  Lea isn't just in a weight class above those who serve Maeve.  Lea ranks 3rd among the Winter Court, after only the Mother and Mab, and ABOVE Maeve.

And he was trying to stay in-character as an Ogre. It seems unlikely he'd demonstrate a Sidhe-only power when doing that...he didn't know how much Harry knew about the Fae (ie: very little), after all. It seems more likely to me that he was indeed counterspelling under the Glamour and using that to mimic an Ogre's natural immunity.
I thought I remembered some mention that it was likely a power imbued into his armour (which was disguised under the glamour when he was appearing as an ogre).
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: thresholds?
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2012, 06:56:22 AM »
It's more than this.  Lea isn't just in a weight class above those who serve Maeve.  Lea ranks 3rd among the Winter Court, after only the Mother and Mab, and ABOVE Maeve.

I thought I remembered something to that effect but wasn't quite sure enough to mention it.

I thought I remembered some mention that it was likely a power imbued into his armour (which was disguised under the glamour when he was appearing as an ogre).

Also possible. Indeed, a combination of these two theories (it's the armor, he was very intentionally using it's similarity to Ogres' immunity to magic to masquerade as one) seems to be the official position of the RPG based on his description on OW p. 233.