Pancake Universe

[wizard nelson]

anyone notice harry was gollum in changes compared to susans frodo? or is that backwards?

[Ms Duck]

anyone notice harry was gollum in changes compared to susans frodo? or is that backwards?

I suspect Lash was gollum, actually.

[Orbweaver]

anyone notice harry was gollum in changes compared to susans frodo? or is that backwards?

I just thought about the Ring being Maggie in either case, and I got very creeped out by the image of Harry throwing his own kid into an active volcano. This is why I don't try to do analogies to other characters in other books. It never ends well, either for me or for the initial characters.

[cass]

anyone notice harry was gollum in changes compared to susans frodo? or is that backwards?

Harry was identified as Samwise to Susan's Frodo.  Gollum was never assigned, even if Harry wondered about it. (My own opinion matches the Duck's-- probably Lash.  I equate the Rampire inflection carried by both Martin and Susan to be the equivalent to the Ring's call, which equates Susan's transformation to Frodo's claiming the Ring.  Boromir also attempted to claim it, yes?  And Sanya-as-Aragorn has already experienced and rejected the temptation of power.)

[Bakoro]

If any corporeal person was Gollum it was Martin or Susan. Martin was the pitiful creature that lead them to Mt. Doom and it was him dieing that allowed the battle to be won. I guess that would mean Susan turned into the ring at the last moment. Or Susan was Gollum since Gollum's death was kind of a predetermined sacrifice that Gandalf (Lea) foresaw.   
Of course it's never going to be a perfect analogy.

[wyltok]

hmm new woj..

Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.

so while worlds remain at the center of the NN, its not allways the same world? innnnteresssting...

thats how the outsiders are getting here

I'm afraid I don't follow. Mind expanding a bit?

[Ms Duck]

Ok.. the DF earth is at the center of the NN

but in some alternate universe, the center of the NN is not the earth, its another planet.

mars? qunos? who knows?

but thats how the aliens are getting here.. not traveling thru space, because the magic doenst go that far..

[wyltok]

So your suggestion is that Outsiders are merely aliens from others planets in other alternate universes, who use some sort of connection between their Never Never and ours to reach our Earth because although their planet and ours don't share the same geographic location, they share the same symbolic "Center of the Universe" location?

Unless Outsiders come from an alternate universe made of anti-matter and/or a galaxy of said alternate universe made of the same (since current science can't tell which of the galaxies out there are matter vs. antimatter), it certainly wouldn't explain the properties of Mordite. Also, it doesn't really explain why they are so hard to affect with magic, if they are so symbolically linked to us.

[Ms Duck]

So your suggestion is that Outsiders are merely aliens from others planets in other alternate universes, who use some sort of connection between their Never Never and ours to reach our Earth because although their planet and ours don't share the same geographic location, they share the same symbolic "Center of the Universe" location?

Unless Outsiders come from an alternate universe made of anti-matter and/or a galaxy of said alternate universe made of the same (since current science can't tell which of the galaxies out there are matter vs. antimatter), it certainly wouldn't explain the properties of Mordite. Also, it doesn't really explain why they are so hard to affect with magic, if they are so symbolically linked to us.

well i doubt they are antimatter. they dotn explode, and neither do we. more like 'skewed magic'- they come from a world that has a very different form of magical energy then we do.

they eveolved in a different way, from a markedly different environment.

[wyltok]

You're basically suggesting that Outsiders come from a place more stable (for lack of a better term) than the Never Never. Maybe it's my reading of the Ender's Game series of books (and Homestuck), but I always pictured Outside as being less stable than the Never Never, rather than your current conjecture. I always saw Outside as being those aspects of reality that exist outside of space-time.

On the other hand, if you're right and Outsiders come from a place that has a parallel in our Universe, it might explain why a particular conjunction of stars could impact a human's magic to create an Outsiderbane.

[Arjan]

I suspect Lash was gollum, actually.

Susans vampire spirit/half/mantle/demon actually.

Followed all the time unseen to get her precious (Susan/ Susans Soul/ Body). Took her precious just before she died. Taking her precious and dying was linked together and both were esential for fullfilling the quest.

[taishojojo]

hmm new woj..

so while worlds remain at the center of the NN, its not allways the same world? innnnteresssting...

thats how the outsiders are getting here

Its all Snowflake theory... Jim's borrowing from Planetary on this one.

[Ms Duck]

Its all Snowflake theory... Jim's borrowing from Planetary on this one.

I love planetary, bit im pretty sure the idea predates both. One thing about Warren Ellis and Jim Butcher is both of them are very good at giving fresh spins to old tropes.

robert heinlien was playing with this one back in the 60s, and im pretty sure he didnt invent it either.

 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

You're basically suggesting that Outsiders come from a place more stable (for lack of a better term) than the Never Never. Maybe it's my reading of the Ender's Game series of books (and Homestuck)

The only real downside of being a Homestuck and also active on this forum is the continual mental snag of remembering which CD one is talking about, I'm finding.

but I always pictured Outside as being less stable than the Never Never, rather than your current conjecture. I always saw Outside as being those aspects of reality that exist outside of space-time.

Before CD I was inclined to tend in this direction, that they would be sort of chaotic in a Far Realm/Lovecraft/Titans/Chaos and Old Night sort of way.  Harry's assertion in CD that all Outsiders are really acting in concert sort of pulls away from that, though.  (Though I am not at all sure where Harry gets that idea from or how reliable it is; could equally well be his general conspiracy-theorist tendencies looking for another Theory Of Everything now that the "Black Council" being behind everything is scuppered.)

[Ms Duck]

The only real downside of being a Homestuck and also active on this forum is the continual mental snag of remembering which CD one is talking about, I'm finding.

Before CD I was inclined to tend in this direction, that they would be sort of chaotic in a Far Realm/Lovecraft/Titans/Chaos and Old Night sort of way.  Harry's assertion in CD that all Outsiders are really acting in concert sort of pulls away from that, though.  (Though I am not at all sure where Harry gets that idea from or how reliable it is; could equally well be his general conspiracy-theorist tendencies looking for another Theory Of Everything now that the "Black Council" being behind everything is scuppered.)

i suspect the outsiders are something like a divine virus, spreading from and consuming worlds.