Author Topic: Pancake Universe  (Read 35576 times)

Offline Bakoro

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #90 on: December 14, 2012, 09:28:28 AM »
Did Winter ever even stop in Chicago? Seems like winter just stayed a while longer. Sound like a magic bio-dome.

I don't think we should be getting to worked up about trying to make magic to real world power conversions. It's fun to see what the the effects of magic are in realistic energy units, but there's no way we could even begin to figure how much a magic unit is to the joule (or whatever). Harry talks a lot about his poor efficiency and how other, less metaphysically substantive wizards do a lot more with a lot less, so who knows how any one stacks up against each other beyond Harry:little Mab:Big.

As far as conservation of energy, that's almost meaningless as far as I can tell. All magic is in equilibrium all over the world and fills in gaps instantly barring circles. Maybe pure magic permeates the NN veil and the "closed system" is the entire multi-verse. Maybe a lot of things.
If magic can convert to heat or cold or whatever, even temporarily, that just throws everything totally out of whack. You change physical forms and borrow NN material to "make" mass, you use purer magic to "make" heat, and it all goes back to being NN material to magic.

There is just no accounting for this stuff because magic. Maybe Jim should write a Dresdenverse Meta-physics book. We can learn those power calculations Harry talked about re: Little Chicago.
Oh snap, I was kidding about that last part, but an illustrated Dresdenverse Cryptozoology book would be awesome. It wouldn't even take much of Jim's time. Maybe have Wayne Barlowe do it, or a bunch of artists.

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #91 on: December 14, 2012, 09:34:11 AM »
The lake is still a massive stopper for spells, it's part of why Demonreach was built there according to Odin IIRC.

Though she's probably a good enough water magic user that running water doesn't really bother her.
no running water is a purifying force, your getting it backwards. still water is located in mabs domain. running water would be worse

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #92 on: December 14, 2012, 09:39:06 AM »
no running water is a purifying force, your getting it backwards. still water is located in mabs domain. running water would be worse

Wasn't that fire? And what part do you think I'm getting backwards?

And why do you think she'll have problems with running water?
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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #93 on: December 14, 2012, 09:43:19 AM »
Wasn't that fire? And what part do you think I'm getting backwards?

And why do you think she'll have problems with running water?
running water washes away magic, still water grounds it out. unless your a water mage

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #94 on: December 14, 2012, 09:45:37 AM »
running water washes away magic, still water grounds it out. unless your a water mage

Ah. All of this was because I referred to the lake as a stopper rather than a more general term to explain why it's a pain to cast spells over the lake?
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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2012, 09:47:01 AM »
Ah. All of this was because I referred to the lake as a stopper rather than a more general term to explain why it's a pain to cast spells over the lake?
Though she's probably a good enough water magic user that running water doesn't really bother her
no thats why... ;)

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2012, 09:48:31 AM »
no thats why... ;)

You don't think she can deal with both running and still water? ;)
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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2012, 09:51:21 AM »
prolly she can but not as good, unless she's manipulating the water itself

Offline knnn

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2012, 01:33:03 PM »
I cant sleep so dont take this too seriously, im juts thinking aloud.. too much coffee does this too me.
whats the worst case Mab could be?

Challenge accepted!   ;D

well.. lets assume that mabs was not doing it on purpose. ergo, it was a side effect from her pressence on earth... which was on demon reach thats about 250 km from chicago, more or less, according to descriptions from Jim. throw in another 100 km to hit Joliet ( Murphy's place) and we can assume a cylinder with a height of 8.5 km and a rough radius of 350 km. or 3,271,183,350,550,372 cubic meters

Ok, so first of all, as I pointed out before, you are overstating the size of the disruption Mab is making.  Google maps says that the distance from Chicago to Joilet is about 50 miles, and that's not in a straight line.  The actual distance is more like 30.  Just to illustrate things, I took the liberty of attaching a map of the area, and I carefully drew a circle with a radius of approximately 350km.  You'll notice that Joilet is WAY inside the circle, as well as a large chunk of lake Michigan.  Just how far out do you think Demonreach can be? (How long does Harry say it takes to get to the island?  I don't have CD in front of me right now).



Let's make the radius 70km instead.  -- that already makes the size of the volume 25 times smaller.

at 1.205kg per cubic meter, at average temp we get..

about 3,941,775,937,413,198,260 grams

now it take 1 joule to cool 1 gram of air (with considerable fudging for humidty, etc..)

so 21 c to 0 ..

82,777,294,685,677,163,460 joules. to accomplish this for one second. in may.

Respectively, but no, this is the total amount of energy it takes to cool the air off by 20 degrees.  If Mab cooled it all in one second this number would be right, but if she was willing to take just 24 hours to cool off the air, you need to divide things by 384,000.  Mab had 6 months. 

As I pointed out before, a much better  estimate is that the temperature drops by 30F at night, and that's just because the sun isn't giving out her 100 Watts per square foot


(asuming no convection, because there was no reports of tornados tossing the sears tower into the lake.)
(also assuming instant transfer, as im not getting into special relativity and times cones here.)
gives us via fourier's heat equation a transfer of  0.006804  calorie/centimeter^2-second
hmm now the surface area of that cylinder was (in cm):

  934,623,814,442,963 cm^2 (asuming contact surfaces only)

Whoa -- You're assuming that she needs to shield against heat from the entire surface.  This is a BIG nono.  Consider that most of the surface area you are getting is from the top of your 8km cylinder.  In fact, the average temperature of the air at that height is already close to or below freezing, so little to no heat will escape that way.   Instead, lets take the surface area of the sides of the cylinder.

Even using your sizes (and remember that you probably won't be losing heat from the top half of your cylinder) You've got a height of 8km and a radius of 350km = 800,000* 35,000,000 * 2pi = 1.6*10^14, that's 6 times smaller. 


so along with the inital cost, she was burning 6,359,180,433,469 joules per second just to keep it cold.

Actually, this about double the 3 trillion watts I had come up with.


thats another 4,944,898,705,066,212,572 just in the few days we saw in GS.

total cost of the cooling alone:

132,226,281,736,339,289,182 joules

or 2,098,829 small atomic bombs.

dont worry, im sure we can take her. all it will take is one iron bullet, right? um, peeps? who wants to shoot first?

 ;D

Again, Over the course of 6 months.  Think about it this way:  An average-sized nuclear power plant produces 1 billion watts, or 1 billion joules per second.  Multiply this by 384000 seconds in a day, multiply by 150 days in 6 months, and you get roughly 60,000,000,000,000,000 joules, or the equivalent of 1000 atomic bombs (by your same estimate).  The difference is of course that the atomic bomb is released all in one fraction of a second, while the power plant takes it slow

Bottom line is, using only your math and your numbers, your final figure "upper limit" means that Mab has the power of about 2000 nuclear reactors.  This is only about double what I posted, and I humbly suggest that if you made all the amendments I suggested, you'd get a figure **far** smaller.

(Quick calculation shows, using your math but my numbers would yield 20 Billion watts, or about the output of about 20 nuclear reactors).

------------------

So yes, the feat is still very impressive, but not crazily so.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 01:43:43 PM by knnn »
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Offline Bakoro

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2012, 02:05:11 PM »
Challenge accepted!   ;D

Just how far out do you think Demonreach can be? (How long does Harry say it takes to get to the island?  I don't have CD in front of me right now).


Pretty sure Demonreach takes about an hour to get to by boat, give or take a bit. It's supposed to be in the middle of the lake. A speed boat goes in the 45-50Mph range so I'd say a 50-60 mile radius from Chicago is fair, with 100 mies being the generous far outlier.
The presence of Water would have zero negative effect on Mab as far as I'm concerned.

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2012, 02:11:49 PM »
I don't suppose you feel up to doing a calculation on the energy that Harry had to use in order to create the iceberg in Cold Days, do you?

Turning a 6 foot deep volume of water (I don't know the exact square footage of the portion of the building that fell into the lake but it was big enough to result in a very significant volume of water/ice) into ice should be one hell of a lot of energy.  Water doesn't like to change temperature easily. :(

take a Wag as to the volume will be the problem.. I have no idea how big the building is. anyone?

after that, the mass of water is 1,000 kg.. and assume 1 joule per gram will give you how many joules it takes.

to add in some fun, realize its a projected force, from his hand, take the surface area, the thermal conductivity of water (0.58)(its actually much easier to cool water then air) and you can calculate the projected energy costs

its probably quite a lot, but a chicken compared to mab's godzilla.

if someone wants to come up with some figures on the size of the building, ill give it a shot.

might tell us a idea on how strong harry is now. my theory on the knights is since there power source is by our POV near infinite (Mab's power can be matched by Humans, but only using nuclear recources) then the limit for knights is from their individual capacity, not from the source.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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wizard nelson

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2012, 02:20:54 PM »
lets say the building is 100 ft by 50 ft in diameter, for conveniences. i wanna hear more numeromancy lol ;)

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2012, 02:24:47 PM »
the isle, accoridng to Jim, is in the dead center of the lake or close to it. Thats about 250 Km from chicago itself, according to the map I found.

and as Salahaldin my 'high point estimate' is still too low, I didnt include the mass of the lake in my measurements. or, if we do assume a sphere and not a cylinder, the mass of the ground.

Oo

yea, im not working out that one. (whats the thermal coefficient for earth? or concrete? whats the ratio for both? never mind..)

as they say, assuming a spherical chicken..

were still getting numbers in the range of 10^16- 10^22

I think we can settle for that, its well within something to work with.

now, who wants to figure out how strong Harry is now?
 
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2012, 02:28:11 PM »
lets say the building is 100 ft by 50 ft in diameter, for conveniences. i wanna hear more numeromancy lol ;)

I think we need more data, my young apprentice (evil cackle)

I need to head off and do soem work stuff.

we need the rough mass of half a warehouse.. we can assume sheet steel for the walls and concrete for the floor.

by rule of thumb, in the case of ice, 90% of the mass has to be below water. so take the mass of the warehouse, multiply by 9, and that will give us our lifitng body :)
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline Serack

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Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2012, 03:24:42 PM »
Ms Duck,
The original Badelynge has been moved to the DFRC

As new Quackiness is generated, just say the word and the curators will facilitate its proper place in the Badelynge in a manor similar to how the "Pancake Universe" addition got in.  I like how the ongoing discussion of newer editions is contained in newer threads, so in general pratice, this topic will remain locked when not trying to open formation for new editions to the Badelynge.  -Serack
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