[CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner

[Dust Bunny]

What if keeping the Blackstaff also enables him to similarly resist the influences of being the Winter Knight (and perhaps Lash?).

Actually, that would (for me) cheapen the books a bit. Harry is a hero because he resisted the temptations all by himself. If the Blackstaff did all the work for him, then the books are about Harry's magical toys, rather than about Harry.

It would enable him to wield all the various powers he's picked up without falling prey to the Dark Side.

The Blackstaff gives one the ability to resist cookies?

[knnn]

No. MW is Death.

There are four horsemen of the apocalypse:

• Conquest
• War
• Death
• Famine

No matter how hard you try, there is no way you can match each set of teeth with one rider.

But if MW is Death, then she's one of the rider. And those riders are described in the book of the Revelations: here is the description of Death:
According to the Bible, Death has four ways to kill mortals during the Apocalypse:  sword, famine, plague and wild beast. Try to match with the set of teeth, and you'll see it fits perfectly.

Well, at least according to one interpretation, the four riders are War, Death, Pestilence, Famine.

Thus, you get:

• iron teeth = War
• rotted-looking = Pestilence
• pointed teeth = Death (ok, that one is a little far-fetched - beast is better)
• simple enough, all white and even = Famine

I hear what you are saying, but the notion of MW switching using her false teeth as the different mantles sounds soooo awesome.   

[Elegast]

Well, at least according to one interpretation, the four riders are War, Death, Pestilence, Famine.

Thus, you get:

• iron teeth = War
• rotted-looking = Pestilence
• pointed teeth = Death (ok, that one is a little far-fetched - beast is better)
• simple enough, all white and even = Famine

I hear what you are saying, but the notion of MW switching using her false teeth as the different mantles sounds soooo awesome.   

I'm not really convinced. Pestilence is not in the Bible as a rider, and even with that it's hard to make it fit (pointed teeth with flesh = Death?).

[Serack]

With regards to Odin's Kringle mask.

I'm not sure but wasn't it said near the beginning of the book that some of the powerful beings that run around mucking it up on Halloween wear masks disguising them as beings they aren't?

That is, just because Odin was wearing a Kringle mask on Halloween, could mean it was a blatant disguise, not that that is one of his jobs.

I'm not convinced, and I'd have to reread some of CD to be more sure, but I think it is possible that some of you guys might have the wrong idea here.

[Elegast]

That is, just because Odin was wearing a Kringle mask on Halloween, could mean it was a blatant disguise, not that that is one of his jobs.

I'm not sure, but the discussion in chapter 5 (I can't quote more than a few words from a Kindle book...), plus this quote:

Vadderung laughed again. He had a hearty laugh, like Santa Claus must have had when he was young and playing football.

gives me the impression he's really Kringle.

[wyltok]

With regards to Odin's Kringle mask.

I'm not sure but wasn't it said near the beginning of the book that some of the powerful beings that run around mucking it up on Halloween wear masks disguising them as beings they aren't?

That is, just because Odin was wearing a Kringle mask on Halloween, could mean it was a blatant disguise, not that that is one of his jobs.

I'm not convinced, and I'd have to reread some of CD to be more sure, but I think it is possible that some of you guys might have the wrong idea here.

Yes, Bob mentions that the reason why the third Merlin created the concept of Halloween was exactly because it would make immortals wary of attacking disguised mortals since they couldn't be sure that the person under the mask might not be as mortal as they originally thought.

Had Kringle not appeared at Harry's party and told us he was going hunting with the Summer King, I would be partial to the idea that Odin was merely wearing a mask. But since these events happened, plus Kringle's comment to Harry that even Immortals have to evolve or die (later reinforced by Bob's comment that Immortals have to go out on that night in order to do their equivalent of feeding), I am fairly confident that Kringle is a mantle as well as a mask.

[TheRaven]

I'm not sure where to fit it into any theories, but something that really sticks out to me with Mother Winter has stuck out in more than one spot:

What  kind of Fairy can handle rusty shears and has iron false teeth?

Normally I lurk, but when I saw this, and I read about Mother Winter's false teeth I was instantly reminded of Baba Yaga who according to some legends has iron false teeth.

http://www.oldrussia.net/baba.html

[TheCuriousFan]

With regards to Odin's Kringle mask.

I'm not sure but wasn't it said near the beginning of the book that some of the powerful beings that run around mucking it up on Halloween wear masks disguising them as beings they aren't?

That is, just because Odin was wearing a Kringle mask on Halloween, could mean it was a blatant disguise, not that that is one of his jobs.

I'm not convinced, and I'd have to reread some of CD to be more sure, but I think it is possible that some of you guys might have the wrong idea here.

Kringle did make a comment that lots of immortals run around wearing other masks or mantles on Halloween night if that's what you're after (and Bob made a comment about how masks on Halloween for mortals mean that immortals can't be sure that it's not another immortal under the mask).

[jlayne]

Very interesting theory.

[jyn8462]

I hear what you are saying, but the notion of MW switching using her false teeth as the different mantles sounds soooo awesome.   

I agree that does sound awesome, and the idea of her as some aspect of death, or at least some how the inspiration for mortals to create this avitar of death does sound awesome. However while the name of Death does fit for MW, it's not even close for MS and she did say 'our' so the name has to fit both, and just saying life and death are two different things is both a cop out, and two DIFFERENT names.

Kringle did make a comment that lots of immortals run around wearing other masks or mantles on Halloween night if that's what you're after (and Bob made a comment about how masks on Halloween for mortals mean that immortals can't be sure that it's not another immortal under the mask).

I'm still not convinced that the mask of kringle isn't just that, a mask that Odin wears sometimes. Maybe he oly ever interacts with Fae as kringle so as to be involved, but not intruding, that would fit with the WoJ about how the King of Winter being a wlyd fae that just interacts without staking territory. He has a certain power that he brings to it (thus granting him respect from the fae), he doesn't get involved with their power struggles (cuz he's mostly retired god, so he don't give a ****), he is undeniably related some how to winter in one way or another, hell for all we know waaaaaaaaaaaay back when he and Mab were actually related back before he and she both became what they are now. I mean hell maybe he's her Daddy or something (think about it, can you imagine the man who would survive getting down with Mother Iron Teeth?).

Or really scarey thought, maybe all the old immortals, are family in one way or another. Like the old gods and such creatures are all related some how. I mean I know the red king was only the way he was because of a powerful spirit from the nevernever that had like infected him or something, but still godly powerful and such.

[Elegast]

However while the name of Death does fit for MW, it's not even close for MS and she did say 'our' so the name has to fit both, and just saying life and death are two different things is both a cop out, and two DIFFERENT names.

You're right. The 'our' problem is really difficult. I would point that deadly plagues grow stronger near MS, and that MW says that death gives value to life, so it's not totally impossible. It's also the old Ying-Yang dichotomie after all.

And about two different names:

Definition of life
noun (plural lives /līvz/)
the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death

Definition of death
noun
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism:

So I may be stretching the facts, but I'm not completely hallucinating...

[Rasins]

No. MW is Death.

There are four horsemen of the apocalypse:

• Conquest
• War
• Death
• Famine

No matter how hard you try, there is no way you can match each set of teeth with one rider.

But if MW is Death, then she's one of the rider. And those riders are described in the book of the Revelations: here is the description of Death:
According to the Bible, Death has four ways to kill mortals during the Apocalypse:  sword, famine, plague and wild beast. Try to match with the set of teeth, and you'll see it fits perfectly.

Actually the four horsemen are Victory, War, Justice, and Death.  And death has four ways to kill ... sword, famine, plague, and wild beasts.

I like the idea that she is Death, that her four sets of teeth represent these four ways to work, but don't confuse the Horsemen with the ways to kill.

Personally, I think Death ate Mother Winter, and took MW's mantle.  Thus limiting himself, but still able to handle iron (and such).  So I think the person who currently has the mantle of MW isn't fae, isn't (necessarily) human, but IS death.  Maybe something (race-wise) different, like a dragon.  (No, I'm not saying MW is a dragon.)

[Elegast]

but don't confuse the Horsemen with the ways to kill.

That was the distinction I was trying to make. I'll clarify my post.

Personally, I think Death ate Mother Winter, and took MW's mantle.  Thus limiting himself, but still able to handle iron (and such).  So I think the person who currently has the mantle of MW isn't fae, isn't (necessarily) human, but IS death.  Maybe something (race-wise) different, like a dragon.  (No, I'm not saying MW is a dragon.)

Agreed.

[cass]

Normally I lurk, but when I saw this, and I read about Mother Winter's false teeth I was instantly reminded of Baba Yaga who according to some legends has iron false teeth.

http://www.oldrussia.net/baba.html

That she's sometimes murderous and sometimes helpful is another link to Baba Yaga.  Do you think she'll get around in a mortar and pestle?  Since her walking stick is missing.

[cmprostreet]

Elegast,

I'm with you on nearly every piece of this, but I had a different take on the Blackstaff. 

My mind took:
MW's missing walking stick,
WOJ on the Blackstaff preventing insanity,
Outsiders/Nemesis' tendency to cause insanity,
Winter's current purpose (defending against Outsiders), and
Knnn's theory that the Laws of Magic exist to prevent Outsiders from gaining influence...

...and cooked up the FrankenWAG^TM that the Blackstaff is specifically a defense against Outsiders' ability to exploit openings made by violations of the Laws of Magic (among other things). 

The Blackstaff would seem alive because it's pulling the Outsider influence out of the user every time they're open to Outsider infestation.  Note that the Blackstaff's tendrils pulling from Eb's arm are reminiscent of Mordite, and the anti-life feeling from Mordite is in turn very similar to the lack of soul in Harry's hand after his first use of Soulfire.

If this is the case, I doubt anyone on the WC knows MW's walking stick's true purpose (i.e. allowing Death itself to walk freely among the Outsiders without being vulnerable to their corruption), save maybe for Rashid.  If Rashid had ever confronted Eb about returning the Blackstaff, that could explain the apparent breakdown in trust between them that Eb refers to in PG*.

Bonus factoid for MW's walking stick = Blackstaff in general:
This would mean MW would have extra cause to be upset by a mortal harming her by summoning her when she can't travel- the mortal who summoned her is the grandson of the one holding her walking stick!

*Also, in a rare double-whammy post, I don't believe that Eb created the Grey Council sometime between PG and TC in response to his conversation with Harry at the end of PG, as others have posted elsewhere.  At the very beginning of PG, Eb tells Harry he's already begun organizing a group of people he trusts- I think the GC predates Harry telling Eb about the BC theory.

Lastly, if Mother Winter is Death, does that make Mother Summer Taxes?