[CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner

[Dust Bunny]

I just want to ask his, but is Kringle a mantle, like the Knight of Winter/Summer, or is it just a mask for Odin when he feels like it?

That is an extremely good question.

My guess (and it is just a guess) is that Kringle is a mask, not a mantle. If someone were to manage to kill Odin, then the mask of Kringle might become a Mantle, but as of right now, it's simply a mask.

[lunyboy]

That is an extremely good question.

My guess (and it is just a guess) is that Kringle is a mask, not a mantle. If someone were to manage to kill Odin, then the mask of Kringle might become a Mantle, but as of right now, it's simply a mask.

Yeah, once you get to a certain level of power, the different "masks" as Odin calls them are more like aspects of their existence, the way all of the upper-tier beings have many names, and have adapted their abilities and signifiers to the disposition of their myths.

[Ezakra]

The office of each of the queens is a mantle, just like the winter knight, Mab was once mortal before she ascended through a rite similar to the dark hallow as per WOJ, so, I am sure, is Mw.  She is also Baba Yaga of the iron teeth and cleaver, she is also Atropos and Skuld, who was the original and what powers are innate to her? Unknown, but I think we have WOJ that the last ice age was the transition of the old Mother S to the current one, so that dates her somewhat...
Each of the immortals seem to add a mantle that has current relevance in order to maintain power in opposition to the Oblivian War.  Ivy is the enemy of all of them, odd that she is a signatory to the accords...

[Dust Bunny]

Each of the immortals seem to add a mantle that has current relevance in order to maintain power in opposition to the Oblivian War.  Ivy is the enemy of all of them, odd that she is a signatory to the accords...

Hmmm ... is the complete oblivion of all non-mortals part of the goal of the Oblivion War? I thought they were only after the nasty things that preyed on humanity.

[KurtinStGeorge]

So it is highly likely Mother Winter's lost walking stick is now known as the Blackstaff.  So what would Harry do if Eb were to die (In battle or murdered) and Harry picked up the staff.  Would he accept the post of the new Blackstaff; assuming it was offered to him, or would he return Mother Winter's walking stick to her?

With the first option Harry gets to break all the laws of magic and do everything he despises without going insane.  The second option puts the staff back in the hands of a being that thinks that Mab is too soft. 

[Dust Bunny]

So it is highly likely Mother Winter's lost walking stick is now known as the Blackstaff.  So what would Harry do if Eb were to die (In battle or murdered) and Harry picked up the staff.  Would he accept the post of the new Blackstaff; assuming it was offered to him, or would he return Mother Winter's walking stick to her?

With the first option Harry gets to break all the laws of magic and do everything he despises without going insane.  The second option puts the staff back in the hands of a being that thinks that Mab is too soft.

Good question. Indeed, that would be a sufficient hook to hang a secondary plot for one of the books.

[123456789blaaa]

That is an extremely good question.

My guess (and it is just a guess) is that Kringle is a mask, not a mantle. If someone were to manage to kill Odin, then the mask of Kringle might become a Mantle, but as of right now, it's simply a mask.

I disagree.

The conversation in Ghost Story implies that Kringle is a mantle (IMO) plus we have this WoJ:

Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.

Which outright says that Kringle is a Faerie. Even taking into account WoJ trickyness, I think this is pretty clear. 

Tangent: Mantles are an AMAZING idea. It basically solves the problem of having multiple redundant gods/beings and also the problem of beings that originate from other myths while still being flexible enough to not limit storytelling opportunities. Jim I salute you.

EDIT:

Hmmm ... is the complete oblivion of all non-mortals part of the goal of the Oblivion War? I thought they were only after the nasty things that preyed on humanity.

No, you're right.

[Elegast]

So it is highly likely Mother Winter's lost walking stick is now known as the Blackstaff.  So what would Harry do if Eb were to die (In battle or murdered) and Harry picked up the staff.  Would he accept the post of the new Blackstaff; assuming it was offered to him, or would he return Mother Winter's walking stick to her?

With the first option Harry gets to break all the laws of magic and do everything he despises without going insane.  The second option puts the staff back in the hands of a being that thinks that Mab is too soft.

He'll give it back to Mother Winter.

I think that during the BAT, we'll see Death, it's one the four riders after all .

[Elegast]

Oh, I think I've solved the four sets of teeth problem:

The place was all one room. The floor was wooden, though the boards looked weathe Red and dry. Shelves stood against the stone walls. A loom rested in the far corner, near the fireplace, a spinning wheel beside it. Before the fireplace sat a rocking chair, occupied, squeaking as it moved. A figure sat in it, shrouded in a shawl, a hood, as though someone had animated a bundle of blankets and cloth. On the hearth above the fireplace sat several sets of teeth, more or less human-sized. One looked simple enough, all white and even. The next was rotted-looking, with chipped incisors and a broken molar. The next set had all pointed teeth, stained with bits of rusty brown and what looked like rotten bits of flesh stuck between them. The last was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword.

When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

• iron teeth = sword
• rotted-looking = plague
• pointed teeth = wild beast
• simple enough, all white and even = famine

EDIT: those four are NOT the four riders, but the four ways Death can kill during the apocalypse according to the Bible.

[Anthony]

So what is Mother Winter true identity? What's particularly annoying is the 'our' name, meaning the name should fit for both mothers.
Several possibilities come to mind: Isis, some Indu or sumerian goddess, or even the WG. For me it's unlikely: Jim said he may not use indu deities, and I doubt that the mothers are mere deities. And there is absolutely nothing pointing to Isis for instance, or the WG. They seem to be force of nature (Mother Summer "it's not your" world), beyond good and evil:

My Gueass: Frau Holle/Holda (some speculation suggest that the word Hell is derived from Frau Holle).

From wikipedia:

In Germanic folklore as established by Jacob Grimm, Frau Holda or Holle is the supernatural matron of spinning, childbirth and domestic animals, and is also associated with winter, witches and the Wild Hunt. Her name is cognate with Scandinavian beings known as the Huldra and the völva Huld
(...)
While governing domestic chores, Holda is also strongly associated with the outside wilderness, wild animals and places remote from man. Frau Holda's festival is in the middle of winter, the time when humans retreat indoors from the cold;

She would fit.

[Cenphx]

Re: the four horsemen, someone else suggested that if MW was Death, MS, who seems to have a fondness for jars of disease, might be Pestilence. Especially considering that quofe from Bob that a season of unbalanced summer would be rampant growth which would be good if you were a disease or virus. The poster (wish I could ever keep track of where I first read something on here) also theorized nemesis might be War. Its an interesting idea. I think the evidence is tighter for Death and Pestilence, but its worth thinking about...

[knnn]

Oh, I think I've solved the four sets of teeth problem:

• iron teeth = sword
• rotted-looking = plague
• pointed teeth = wild beast
• simple enough, all white and even = famine

So you are essentially saying that MW's false teeth are her various mantles as the 4 riders of the apocalypse? 

[Dust Bunny]

So you are essentially saying that MW's false teeth are her various mantles as the 4 riders of the apocalypse?

It's an elegant theory ... in a very viscerally disturbing kind of way.

[Elegast]

So you are essentially saying that MW's false teeth are her various mantles as the 4 riders of the apocalypse?

No. MW is Death.

There are four horsemen of the apocalypse:

• Conquest
• War
• Death
• Famine

No matter how hard you try, there is no way you can match each set of teeth with one rider.

But if MW is Death, then she's one of the rider. And those riders are described in the book of the Revelations: here is the description of Death:

When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

According to the Bible, Death has four ways to kill mortals during the Apocalypse:  sword, famine, plague and wild beast. Try to match with the set of teeth, and you'll see it fits perfectly.

[Bujin]

So it is highly likely Mother Winter's lost walking stick is now known as the Blackstaff.  So what would Harry do if Eb were to die (In battle or murdered) and Harry picked up the staff.  Would he accept the post of the new Blackstaff; assuming it was offered to him, or would he return Mother Winter's walking stick to her?

With the first option Harry gets to break all the laws of magic and do everything he despises without going insane.  The second option puts the staff back in the hands of a being that thinks that Mab is too soft.

What if keeping the Blackstaff also enables him to similarly resist the influences of being the Winter Knight (and perhaps Lash?). It would enable him to wield all the various powers he's picked up without falling prey to the Dark Side.