[CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner

[Cenphx]

A raven or crow is more than affiliated with death or a symbol thereof; its considered a psychopomp or a being which helps guide the way between the land of the living and the land of the dead. Which makes it interesting that Harry saw the crow two different times on his way to MW's house in SK.    Also, regarding the iron teeth and shears, what if Death is another mantle and when MW took it up she became more than just fae with fae limitations.

[Elegast]

A raven or crow is more than affiliated with death or a symbol thereof; its considered a psychopomp or a being which helps guide the way between the land of the living and the land of the dead. Which makes it interesting that Harry saw the crow two different times on his way to MW's house in SK. 

Good catch!

And Harry is actually guided by the raven toward Mother Winter's cottage:

Then we both started off after the raven.

So that would fit really well.

[Vairelome]

Her knight was stupid enough to lose her stick, she was so disgusted by those mortals she subcontracted the whole thing to Mab.

Possible, but note the WoJ concerning the Blackstaff--"Also, the White Council stole it from someone.  And they really want it back."  Assuming that Mother Winter was the original owner of the Blackstaff, this does not necessarily say that the White Council stole it from her, just that they stole it from the immediately-preceding owner, who may or may not have been Mother Winter.

That said, the second sentence, combined with Mother Winter's crankiness about the pain of walking without her stick, does suggest a direct connection.

[Elegast]

Possible, but note the WoJ concerning the Blackstaff--"Also, the White Council stole it from someone.  And they really want it back."  Assuming that Mother Winter was the original owner of the Blackstaff, this does not necessarily say that the White Council stole it from her, just that they stole it from the immediately-preceding owner, who may or may not have been Mother Winter.

Yes. If the Blackstaff is linked to the raven banner, it was lost on the field, which seems more credible than the WC taking it directly from Mother Winter, as the whole WC is approximatively at Mab's level, and Mother Winter is far more powerful than Mab.

It may be the reason why she hasn't taken it back: it's has been taken through death and battle, so maybe the WC "earned" it in some strange value system.

[jyn8462]

You do present a good argument for MW not being Fae in some sense, or for the office of Winter's Eldest being like the office of Knight (in that Harry can handle iron, he only has problems if it penetrates his skin).

I feel it should be said that the knights have to be mortals, that's the point, that is why Harry can handle Iron. If the mantle of Mother Winter had been passed to a mortal, say to a changeling then that person would have gotten transformed into a fey

(click to show/hide)

Just like Mab was, since she said at the end of Cold Days she once was a mortal, and we know she hates the touch of iron the way all fey do

[Elegast]

I feel it should be said that the knights have to be mortals, that's the point, that is why Harry can handle Iron. If the mantle of Mother Winter had been passed to a mortal, say to a changeling then that person would have gotten transformed into a fey

(click to show/hide)

Just like Mab was, since she said at the end of Cold Days she once was a mortal, and we know she hates the touch of iron the way all fey do

Odin was not transformed into a fae (his entire office is in stainless steel...). That's because he was a god in the first place. If Mother Winter is Death, there is no reason she became a faerie.

[jyn8462]

Odin was not transformed into a fae (his entire office is in stainless steel...). That's because he was a god in the first place. If Mother Winter is Death, there is no reason she became a faerie.

but is he an actual member of the fae court the way Mab and Mother Winter are?

[Dust Bunny]

but is he an actual member of the fae court the way Mab and Mother Winter are?

No, but I can see the logic. If MW was Death, becoming a Fae would actually be a step down in power for her.

[123456789blaaa]

Odin probably gains the Fae's weakness to iron only when he dons the mantle of Kringle. I think he also actually becomes a Fae at that time.

[Dust Bunny]

Odin probably gains the Fae's weakness to iron only when he dons the mantle of Kringle. I think he also actually becomes a Fae at that time.

If he had, wouldn't getting smacked with the Winchester have burned/poisoned him?

[123456789blaaa]

If he had, wouldn't getting smacked with the Winchester have burned/poisoned him?

Was the part of the Winchester that he got smacked with made of mostly iron? I know nothing about guns...

[Dust Bunny]

Was the part of the Winchester that he got smacked with made of mostly iron? I know nothing about guns...

I don't have my copy handy, so I don't remember if Kringle got smacked with the stock or the barrel. (The stock would be wood, the barrel steel--and the stock may or may not have a steel butt-plate on it as well, depending upon the model.)

[jyn8462]

I don't have my copy handy, so I don't remember if Kringle got smacked with the stock or the barrel. (The stock would be wood, the barrel steel--and the stock may or may not have a steel butt-plate on it as well, depending upon the model.)

He never actually gets hit with the gun, Harry uses it to block he sword and when he is on top of him holds it like a club, but he doesn't hit him with it. [Cold Days, 404]

[Dust Bunny]

He never actually gets hit with the gun, Harry uses it to block he sword and when he is on top of him holds it like a club, but he doesn't hit him with it. [Cold Days, 404]

Ahah! So the question of whether or not Kringle suffers from contact with Bane is still unanswered.

Thanks for the quote and clarification.

[jyn8462]

Ahah! So the question of whether or not Kringle suffers from contact with Bane is still unanswered.

Thanks for the quote and clarification.

I just want to ask his, but is Kringle a mantle, like the Knight of Winter/Summer, or is it just a mask for Odin when he feels like it?

I mean it makes some sense for Kringle to be Odin's invention, Odin was the "father" of the Norse Gods IIRC and they were a very cold group, and I think I can recall stories that Odin rewarded those who were good and punished the wicked (naughty) so there could be some room there for dumbing down the idea for children and to make it seem nicer, but there are some old stories that say Father Christmas wasn't associated with either gift giving or children until recently (we're talking hundred or more years), so that could mean the mask/persona that Odin made has been reinterpreted by people and co-opted into the christmas mythos.

But again I'm not really clear on the distinction between the mantle of Kringle as a idea vs the idea that Odin was just wearing an illusion (probably a very good one if he could do it around fae and have them at least play along with it) hat he created sometime in the past for some reason.