Poll

Select if you think the statement is correct

The Blackstaff is Mother Winter's walking stick.
Mother Winter is Death.
The Blackstaff works by taking the tainted bits of soul.
The Blackstaff is the Raven Banner.

Author Topic: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner  (Read 32976 times)

Offline Elegast

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Here comes a five part theory.  8)

The first two are stolen from this thread, the last three are mine.

Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
On the natures of theories

The theories on this forum can be divided in two big categories:

"solution looking for a problem": that's a theory which basically creates a problem where there is none, and then solves it. Example: "Harry=Kemmler". We know who is Harry, we know who is Kemmler, so there was no real problem in the first place. Those theories have low probabilities of success, but when there are right it's quite spectacular.

"problem looking for a solution" : those are theories trying to solve a problem that Jim has been specifically dangling right before our noses. Example: "Mab fixed LC". Harry and Bob spend many lines explaining that there is a mystery to solve. Those have far better chances of success, and have less unexpected solution.

Concerning that post, we have three quarters responding to a mystery, one quarter WAG.

The mysteries are:

Where does the blackstaff comes from?
Quote from: WOJ
Q:  Can you tell us a little more about the black staff?
A:   The staff keeps Eb from going crazy, mostly.  Also, the White Council stole it from someone.  And they really want it back.

What is the real/most important name of Mother Winter?
Quote from: Cold Days
But youve only guessed the name of one of her masks not our most powerful name.

Where in celtic lore does the blackstaff shows up?
Quote from: WOJ
How long has the White Council had the Blackstaff?
Look for Celtic Lore around 1065 ad.


The Blackstaff is Mother's winter walking stick (reasonable theory)

So we have been looking for the Blackstaff's origine. In Cold Days there was a very interesting remark from Mother Summer:
Quote from: CD
“It is her way,” Mother Summer said, smiling. “She rarely leaves our cottage anymore. She lost her walking stick.
Here is the description of the Blackstaff:
Quote
Ebenezar McCoy extended his left hand and spoke another word, and darkness swirled from the shadows and condensed into a staff of dark, twisted wood, unmarked by any kind of carving whatsoever.

It fits well: it's a simple wood stick, it's black, which respect Mother Winter color theme, it corresponds to her dark nature.

Mother Winter is Death (possible but speculative) (Dust Bunny was probably the first to have this idea)

We know that Mother Winter has a secret identity.

Harry has already found some her lesser names:
Quote from: Cold Days
Athropos! Skuld! Mother Winter, I summon thee!

Athropos:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Atropos or Aisa was the oldest of the Three Fates, and was known as the "inflexible" or "inevitable." It was Atropos who chose the mechanism of death and ended the life of each mortal by cutting their thread with her "abhorred shears."
Skuld:
Quote from: Wikipedia
Skuld (the name possibly means "debt" or "future")[1] is a Norn in Norse mythology. Along with Urđr (Old Norse "fate"[2]) and Verđandi (possibly "happening" or "present"[3]), Skuld makes up a trio of Norns that are described as deciding the fates of people.

Arthropos is the fate ending the lives of mortal, Skuld has a less defined role, but the norms as a whole were also linked to fate and death.

In Summer Knight: she says:
Quote from: Summer Knight
"An unmaking, boy. I am the unmaker, the destroyer. It is what I am. Bound within those threads is the power to undo any enchantment done. Touch the cloth to that which must be undone. Unravel the threads. It will be so."

Then there is her looks:
Quote from: Summer Knight
I knelt in front of Mother Winter's rocking chair. I couldn't see her, even from here. Even her feet were covered by layers of dark cloth. But on her lap rested a pair of knitting needles, and a simple square of cloth, trailing thick threads of grey, undyed wool. Mother Winter reached down with her withered hands, and took up a pair of rusted shears. She cut the trailing threads and passed me the cloth.

So what is Mother Winter true identity? What's particularly annoying is the 'our' name, meaning the name should fit for both mothers.
Several possibilities come to mind: Isis, some Indu or sumerian goddess, or even the WG. For me it's unlikely: Jim said he may not use indu deities, and I doubt that the mothers are mere deities. And there is absolutely nothing pointing to Isis for instance, or the WG. They seem to be force of nature (Mother Summer "it's not your" world), beyond good and evil:
Quote from: Cold Days
I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen everything I was against the will of an ancient being of darkness, terror, and malice, a fundamental power of the world.

Death is the solution, especially considering this clue:
Quote from: Cold Days
going to talk to Mother Winter was about half an inch shy of trying to call up Lucifer, or maybe Death itself (if there was such a being no one was really sure)

Then how do we solve the 'our' problem? By saying that life and death are the same thing, two sides of the same coin: everything which is alive will die, and everything that will die is alive. So Mother Winter is Death, and Mother Summer is the Mother Godess, Life, Gaia.

Now, consider this quote about the Blackstaff:
Quote from: Changes
Then he swept the Blackstaff from left to right, murmured a word, and ripped the life from a hundred men.
They just . . . died.

There was absolutely nothing to mark their deaths. No sign of pain. No struggle. No convulsion of muscles. No reaction at all. One moment they were firing wildly down at us—and the next, they simply—
Dropped.
Dead.
The old man turned to the other wall, and I saw two or three of the brighter soldiers throw their guns down and run. I don’t know if they made it, but the old man swept the Blackstaff through the air again, and the gunmen on that side of the field dropped dead where they stood.
My godmother watched it happen, and bounced and clapped her hands some more, as delighted as a child at the circus.
I stared for a second, shocked. Ebenezar had just shattered the First Law of Magic: Thou shalt not kill. He had used magic to directly end the life of another human being—nearly two hundred times. I mean, yes, I had known what his office allowed him to do. . . . But there was a big difference between appreciating a fact and seeing that terrible truth in motion.
The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.
From left to right, that's the how you use a scythe.
 
Then we have this (many possible interpretations) WOJ:
Quote from: WOJ
Does the blackstaff have any powers that relate to the dead?
Other than making people dead?  Really, that's kind of the point [Crowd Laughs]  Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he's doing insane things.  Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that's better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha*  Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that. 

So I think a strong case for Mother winter being Death.

I have another clue but I'll save it for later. ;)

How the Blackstaff works: by swallowing the soul (highly speculative)

Now this is pure WAG. Still I wanted to share it with you. You can skip to the next section if you want. ;D

There is a very interesting quote in Changes:
Quote from: Changes
The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.
I also saw veins of venomous black begin to ooze their way over the old man’s hand, reaching up slowly, spreading to his wrist. He grimaced and held his left forearm with his right hand for a moment, then looked over his shoulder and said, “All right!”

Now that's really interesting. We have already seen exactly the same scene:
Quote from: Small Favor
That was when I realized a couple of things.
The silver energy construct that had gripped the Denarian was gone.
And I couldn’t feel my right hand.
I looked down in a panic, but found that it was still there, at least, flopping loosely at the end of my arm. I couldn’t feel anything below my wrist. My fingers were slightly curled and didn’t respond when I told them to move.

That was when Uriel gave Harry soulfire. In both cases there was a lose of control/sensation in the hand.

My WAG: the blackstaff takes away a bit of your soul, the part related to the act of evil you just commited. Then all those bits are stored in the Blackstaff, hence the alive part.

Note that for soulfire it was the right hand, for the blackstaff the left one.


The Blackstaff is the Raven Banner (insane?)

Now, time for some wild speculation.  ;D

The blackstaff is supposed to appear somewhere in celtic lore, around 1065.

Now there is an obvious solution: Dagda, the 'All Father', an Irish god, had a magical staff which would kill nine men at one end, and bring the dead back to life at the other. There's a real chance it's the blackstaff, but there are two problems: in doesn't show up in 1065 (that may be wrong, if anyone can correct, don't hesitate); and in the dresdenverse I suspect Odin and Dagda to be the same god. Odin had already a staff, Gungnir, and we saw it in Changes:
Quote from: Changes
The farthest grey figure, tall and lean, lifted his staff. I saw light gleam off of metal at one end of the staff, and then green lightning enfolded the length of wood as he thrust the metal end into the ground. He took the staff back—but the twisting length of green lightning stayed. He drove the staff down again about six feet away, and again lightning sheathed it. Then he removed the staff, reversed his grip on it, and with a sweep of his arm drew another shaft of lightning between the two upright columns of electricity, bridging the gap.

So odin has still his staff.

So where is the blackstaff?

My guess : it's the Raven banner of Harald Hardrada. The guy tried to invade England in 1066.

Quote from: Wikipedia
According to the Heimskringla, Harald Hardrada flew a raven banner called Landřyđan or "Land-waster"; whether this was the same banner as that flown by Sigurd of Northumbria is unclear. In a conversation between Harald and King Sweyn II of Denmark,
Sveinn asked Haraldr which of his possessions of his he valued most highly. He answered that it was his banner (merki), Landřyđan. Thereupon Sveinn asked what virtue it had to be accounted so valuable. Haraldr replied that it was prophesied that victory would be his before whom this banner was borne; and added that this had been the case ever since he had obtained it. Thereupon Sveinn said, "I shall believe that your flag has this virtue if you fight three battles with King Magnús, your kinsman, and are victorious in all."[29]
Years later, during Harald's invasion of England, Harald fought a pitched battle against two English earls outside York. Harald's Saga relates that when King Haraldr saw that the battle array of the English had come down along the ditch right opposite them, he had the trumpets blown and sharply urged his men to the attack, raising his banner called Landřyđan. And there so strong an attack was made by him that nothing held against it.[30]

Harald's army flew the banner at the Battle of Stamford Bridge, where it was carried by a warrior named Frírek. After Harald was struck by an arrow and killed, his army fought fiercely for possession of the banner, and some of them went berserk in their frenzy to secure the flag. In the end the "magic" of the banner failed, and the bulk of the Norwegian army was slaughtered, with only a few escaping to their ships.[31]

Quote from: Wikipedia
According to the Orkneyinga Saga, it was made for Sigurd the Stout by his mother, a völva or sorceress. She told him that the banner would "bring victory to the man it's carried before, but death to the one who carries it."

Looks similar to the way the staff was swallowing Eb's lifeforce:
Quote from: Changes
I also saw veins of venomous black begin to ooze their way over the old man’s hand, reaching up slowly, spreading to his wrist. He grimaced and held his left forearm with his right hand for a moment, then looked over his shoulder and said, “All right!”

The raven banner

The raven was the symbol of death of death and carnage in celtic lore. Still, two problem remains: a banner is not a staff, and the raven are linked to Odin too.

Those two objections can be partially resolved:

Concerning the banner, we know that Mother Winter likes to make some workings (SK) out of cloths. So maybe the raven banner was knitted by Death, and then carried on her staff.

The raven problem is half-solved by a scene in Sk:
Quote from: Summer Knight
A tattered-looking raven crouched on a nearby branch, its bead-black eyes gleaming.
"Cheery," Elaine said.
"Yeah. Very Baskerville." The carriage started up again, and I looked back to see it vanishing into the mist. "Okay. Where to now?"
At my words the raven let out a croaking caw. It shook itself, bits of moldy feather drifting down, and then beat its wings a few times and settled on another branch, almost out of sight.
"Harry," Elaine said.
"Yeah?"
"If you make any corny joke using the word 'nevermore,' I'm going to punch you. Do you understand me?"
"Never more," I confirmed. Elaine rolled her eyes. Then we both started off after the raven.
It led us through the cloudy landscape, flitting silently from tree to tree. We trudged behind it until more trees began to rise in the mist ahead of us, thickening. The ground grew softer, the air more wet, cloying. The raven let out another caw, then vanished into the trees and out of sight.
Quote from: Summer Knight
The lights turned out to be a pair of lit windows in a cottage that stood by itself on a slight rise of ground. Stone obelisks the size of coffins, some fallen and cracked and others still upright, stood scattered in loose rings around the mound. The raven rested on one of them, its beady eyes gleaming. It let out another croaking sound and flew through an open window of the cottage

The raven is the symbol of Mother Winter, which is also the final proof that she's Death.
 EDIT: a good remark from Cenphx:
A raven or crow is more than affiliated with death or a symbol thereof; its considered a psychopomp or a being which helps guide the way between the land of the living and the land of the dead.

And the raven guided Harry to the cottage...


EDIT:

A good catch from Vairelom:
Regarding the Raven Banner angle, consider the Stormcrow Banner that appears in the Codex Alera.  In that case, it isn't directly tied to a Celtic legendary object, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't a deliberate callback.  At a minimum, this should establish that JB is familiar with the right legends.
I'm going to keep this somewhat indirect to avoid CA spoilers, but one of the Imperial military symbols on banners is an eagle.  At a significant point, one of those banners ends up getting blasted by a gout of flame that chars the threads of the eagle, making the bird-shape all black.  The legion associated with that banner decides the banner is lucky and refuses to repair it, and they are given the name "the Stormcrows."

Crows/ravens are a major symbolic element of death (possibly the biggest one) in CA, and they appear in considerable numbers over any battlefield.  It's noted at one point that you can predict how major/bloody a particular battle will be by the size of the murder that appears in the skies.  Also, "crows" is a common expletive used in the series.  In context, adopting "Stormcrows" as your legion nickname is approximately as ballsy as picking "Legion of Death."

The 4 sets of teeth from Summer Knight

Oh, I think I've solved the four sets of teeth problem:
Quote from: Summer Knight
The place was all one room. The floor was wooden, though the boards looked weathe Red and dry. Shelves stood against the stone walls. A loom rested in the far corner, near the fireplace, a spinning wheel beside it. Before the fireplace sat a rocking chair, occupied, squeaking as it moved. A figure sat in it, shrouded in a shawl, a hood, as though someone had animated a bundle of blankets and cloth. On the hearth above the fireplace sat several sets of teeth, more or less human-sized. One looked simple enough, all white and even. The next was rotted-looking, with chipped incisors and a broken molar. The next set had all pointed teeth, stained with bits of rusty brown and what looked like rotten bits of flesh stuck between them. The last was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword.
Quote from: Revelation 6:7-8˄ NIV
When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


  • iron teeth = sword
  • rotted-looking = plague
  • pointed teeth = wild beast
  • simple enough, all white and even = famine

EDIT: those four are NOT the four riders, but the four ways Death can kill during the apocalypse according to the Bible.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 05:18:43 PM by Serack »
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Offline Kaeien

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 05:45:22 PM »
Very nicely done.

Offline Kaeien

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 06:21:39 PM »
Bit of a side note, if it is Mother Winter's walking stick ... why hasn't she taken it back?

Offline Serack

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2012, 06:24:54 PM »
I'm not sure where to fit it into any theories, but something that really sticks out to me with Mother Winter has stuck out in more than one spot:

Quote from: Summer Knight
I knelt in front of Mother Winter's rocking chair. I couldn't see her, even from here. Even her feet were covered by layers of dark cloth. But on her lap rested a pair of knitting needles, and a simple square of cloth, trailing thick threads of grey, undyed wool. Mother Winter reached down with her withered hands, and took up a pair of rusted shears. She cut the trailing threads and passed me the cloth.

Quote from: Cold Days
She has spent too much time with mortals," Mother Winter continued, withered lips peeled back from iron teeth as the sparks from her cleaver's edge lept higher."

What  kind of Fairy can handle rusty shears and has iron false teeth?
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Offline Kaeien

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2012, 06:26:25 PM »
OOOOHHHHHH!!!

Offline Elegast

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2012, 06:36:01 PM »
What  kind of Fairy can handle rusty shears and has iron false teeth?

Maybe she's like Harry:
Quote
Any kind of iron gets under my skin, it seems to disagree with the Winter Knights bundle of awesome.

She's not a fairie, so as long as the Iron is not under her skin, the mantle doesn't care.
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Offline Mass

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 08:36:35 PM »
She's probably not actually fairie. If the theory is correct she is DEATH (now where has Binky gone)?

Amusingly that would mean Harry again used Soulfire to escape death.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 10:17:37 PM »
This is a very interesting collection of theory's. The only thing I dispute is that Eb using the blackstaff to kill people could have just been him using his normal wizard magic.
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Offline Elegast

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2012, 10:58:14 PM »
The only thing I dispute is that Eb using the blackstaff to kill people could have just been him using his normal wizard magic.

Definitely.
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Offline Dust Bunny

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2012, 12:12:55 AM »
What  kind of Fairy can handle rusty shears and has iron false teeth?

If you're as bad-a** as Mother Winter, you have any kind of false teeth you want. ;)

You do present a good argument for MW not being Fae in some sense, or for the office of Winter's Eldest being like the office of Knight (in that Harry can handle iron, he only has problems if it penetrates his skin). But if MW is Death Herself, then by every definition I can think of she's not a "standard" Fae--indeed, if I were writing the books, Death would predate the Fae entirely.

The only fly in the ointment I see is thus: is this what Jim has in mind?

Time may tell....
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Offline Vairelome

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 12:24:36 AM »
Regarding the Raven Banner angle, consider the Stormcrow Banner that appears in the Codex Alera.  In that case, it isn't directly tied to a Celtic legendary object, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't a deliberate callback.  At a minimum, this should establish that JB is familiar with the right legends.

On a related note, "look for Celtic lore around 1065 AD"?  Could that be related to Titania's comment that she has not spoken to Mab since "before Hastings"?  Perhaps there was a significant amount of Faerie Queen family drama around that time, and the loss of Mother Winter's walking stick/Raven Banner/Blackstaff was tied up in the conflict.  (For added insanity, I don't think we know exactly when the former Mother Summer retired....)

Offline Elegast

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2012, 12:28:54 AM »
Regarding the Raven Banner angle, consider the Stormcrow Banner that appears in the Codex Alera.  In that case, it isn't directly tied to a Celtic legendary object, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't a deliberate callback.  At a minimum, this should establish that JB is familiar with the right legends.

That's a fascinating remark. Could you remind me what is the Stormcrow Banner in CA? (I read the serie only once, and I went really fast)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 12:42:04 AM by Elegast »
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Offline Vairelome

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2012, 12:39:25 AM »
I'm going to keep this somewhat indirect to avoid CA spoilers, but one of the Imperial military symbols on banners is an eagle.  At a significant point, one of those banners ends up getting blasted by a gout of flame that chars the threads of the eagle, making the bird-shape all black.  The legion associated with that banner decides the banner is lucky and refuses to repair it, and they are given the name "the Stormcrows."

Crows/ravens are a major symbolic element of death (possibly the biggest one) in CA, and they appear in considerable numbers over any battlefield.  It's noted at one point that you can predict how major/bloody a particular battle will be by the size of the murder that appears in the skies.  Also, "crows" is a common expletive used in the series.  In context, adopting "Stormcrows" as your legion nickname is approximately as ballsy as picking "Legion of Death."

Offline Orbweaver

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2012, 12:49:21 AM »
Interesting... the White Council acquired the Blackstaff sometime around 1065. The other important date mentioned in CD is 1066, when the battle of Hastings happened and Titania spoke one-on-one with Mab.

So Mother Winter lost her walking stick, and the Blackstaff changed hands in 1065. It may be that the year the 'walking stick' actually passed from Mother Winter to the Council was in 1066- which would put Mother Winter at Hastings.

If she was there- were the Outsiders there as well?
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Offline Elegast

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Re: [CD spoilers] Mother Winter, the Blackstaff, Death and the Raven Banner
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 12:50:23 AM »
On a related note, "look for Celtic lore around 1065 AD"?  Could that be related to Titania's comment that she has not spoken to Mab since "before Hastings"?  Perhaps there was a significant amount of Faerie Queen family drama around that time, and the loss of Mother Winter's walking stick/Raven Banner/Blackstaff was tied up in the conflict.  (For added insanity, I don't think we know exactly when the former Mother Summer retired....)

It's certainly linked to Hastings/Stamford Bridge. I suspect there was at least a fairie knight among them. My guess: that's when Mother Winter gave the Winter Knight Mantle to Mab:
Quote from: CS
Once I have devoured your flesh, and your mantle with it, I will bestow it upon someone worthier of the name. I should never have given it to Mab.
Her knight was stupid enough to lose her stick, she was so disgusted by those mortals she subcontracted the whole thing to Mab.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 12:51:55 AM by Elegast »
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