Poll

Select if you think the statement is correct:

Nemesis made the first move, Mab countered.
The denarians had planned to capture the Archive from the very beginning.
Titania's aim was to oppose Winter.
Maeve was behind the Hob attack.

Author Topic: [CD spoilers] Small Favor  (Read 24683 times)

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
[CD spoilers] Small Favor
« on: December 03, 2012, 08:21:21 PM »
Be sure to go down to response #3 where Elegast busts out his new material -Serack

With the new info in CD, Small Favor becomes far easier to understand.

First, let me quote Knnn who wrote the best post ever concerning Small Favor:

Preface:

Small Favor is another of those books where something is going on in the background, and I've been trying to come up with a theory to explain it all.  I've come up with something, but I don't feel it is quite as solid as what I have for Proven Guilty, but I still think it is worth sharing.  As such, I am going to build up to the theory one block at a time, so that even if the full story is not perfect, at least the individual building blocks may encourages other to come up with their own insights.

Here goes (deep breath):

1) Is Mab being played, or is she the "player"?

We are told in Small Favor that the whole "Harry is predictable" explains how the Denarian's plan to capture the Archive isn't crazy.  However, there still is a critical point missing -- they would have had to predict that Mab would:
a) Choose to rescue Marcone, and
b) Choose Harry as Emissary in this task. 

Now, one could say that Harry would have investigated Marcone's abduction without Mab's intervention, but I'll deal with that chain of logic later on. 

Instead, consider the notion of trying to get Mab to do what you want.  Yes, she is predictable (i.e. no free will), but then so is that world-champion-chess-playing-computer-program.  Sure, if you study the algorithms it uses you can predict what it might do at any given position, but lets see you beat it at a game of chess....  With Mab it is much worse.  Not only do you need to be able to understand her thought-processes in an intimate manner, you also need access to every piece of information she uses to make those decisions - and she has *lots* of ways of gathering information.

Thus, if it's a choice between Mab being played, or Mab playing a game on someone else -- my money is on Mab.  If you limit the choice to "Denarians playing Mab" or "Mab playing the Denarians", I certainly know who I'm betting on.  The only way I could see Mab being played is if was someone like Titania or an Archangel playing on the other side.  I personally believe Titania is working hand in hand with Mab, but that is a subject for a different post (see here for my thoughts on that issue).

Two more points that can be read as supporting Mab:

a) Harry notes (end of chapter 7), that the first set of gruffs were sent by Titania hours before Marcone was attacked, and that this was in response to Mab declaring Harry to be her Emissary in this case. Note also that in this WoJ he says (emphasis mine):
Quote
The first are just the newer gruffs, those most recent from being Changelings.  They attacked Harry simply because Mab declared that she had chosen him as her emissary.
This essentially means that Mab made the first move.

b) At the Shedd, Harry realizes what is going on, flings Nicodemus into a wall and runs inside the descending uber-circle, but first has time to smash Namshiel with a soul-hand a couple of times.  Nic has shown that he has pretty good powers of recuperation, and yet he doesn't make it inside the Pentagram on time.  In fact, Tessa even comments about it.  You'd think Nic could have made it back in time... 

What I find further interesting is that Nic doesn't even try to run interference on the outside.  I mean, you've got wounded Gard and Hendricks (whom they need to capture for torture purposes -- to convince Marcone to take up a coin), and even two juicy Knights.  Sure, Nicodemus is a cautious fellow, but it didn't stop him from flying back to the train to kill attack Michael back in Death Masks. 

To me this suggests that the conversation with Harry in the Shedd really shocked Nic to the core.  All of a sudden, he realizes that something else is going on, and maybe he is being played somehow.  Consequently, he quietly hedges his bets and exists the scene. 

I realize this doesn't automatically mean that Mab is calling the shots (Nicodemus has also just realized that the Black Court has infiltrated his ranks), but...


On to the next point.

2) What advantage does Mab get by choosing Harry as Emissary?

Would Harry really have gone and tried to save Marcone if Mab hadn't chosen him to be Emissary (with the Archive being brought in, etc.)?  If the answer is "yes", then why did she choose him in the first place?  Having Harry as Emissary only adds on the apparent liability of causing Summer's goons to start chasing him, followed by the necessity of removing Fire from his arsenal of weapons.

Some thoughts:

a) Would Harry have been able to call in the Archive to arbitrate without the threat of Mab removing permission for the White Council to use the "ways"? 
b) Would Harry have even moved to save Marcone if not coerced by Mab?  The conversation he has with Thomas shows he might not have.
c) Even if Harry intended to investigate the building, note that he wasn't aware that Marcone was actually inside the building during the attack until Mab showed him in the ice-movie she made.  He might not have moved quickly enough, maybe even stopped at Mrs. Demeter's "Marcone is busy" routine.

Then there is also this quote from the book that need to be resolved:

Quote
I didn’t want to think too hard about that, and I didn’t want to openly agree with her, either. So instead I nodded at the patch of ground where the sculptures had been. “Who took Marcone?”
“I do not know. That is one reason I chose you, Emissary. You have a gift for finding what is lost.”
“If you want me to do this for you, I’m going to need to ask you some questions,” I said.
Mab glanced up, as if consulting the stars through the still-falling snow. “Time, time, time. Will there never be an end to it?” She shook her head. “Wizard child, the hour has nearly passed. I have duties upon which to attend-as do you. You should rise and leave this place immediately.”

The simple explanation here is that Mab really doesn't know who took Marcone, but I find it hard to believe that with all her information-gathering resources she couldn't figure it out something about the attackers.

Examples:

a) Usage of an uber-pentegram that Harry ultimately calculates would require an arch-angel to empower.
b) She could see inside the building the Marcone was hiding in, you'd think she'd be able to see the inside of the car he was taken in.
c) Smell of hellfire -- big giveaway.

Note also that when Harry wants to ask more questions, she brushes him off with the gruff threat (not that those gruff can pose any threat while Mab is standing right there).

Thing is, Mab cannot lie, so maybe she doesn't know exactly who took Marcone.  I'll bet she has a darn good guess though.

-->

To me, the takeaway is that if we assume that Mab is the one calling the shots, then somehow, getting the Archive involved must be part of the plan.

3) The Hob attack

The Hob attack is another weird event.  On the face of it, it seems like an attempt to abduct or kill the Archive, but in fact, I find it hard to believe that gang of Hobs would be a reasonable threat to her.  This is after all a being that is at least as powerful as one of the Faerie Ladies (according to the underestimation of the Warden files), and we see her hold off a horde of Denarians without much trouble.  Add to this Kincaid and Luccio, (and possibly also Harry and Michael - Mab must be keeping tabs on her Emissary), and using a bunch of Hobs for such an operation seems downright stupid -- which Mab is not.  At the very last resort, Ivy could retreat into the Nevernever...

Thus, I suggest that if Mab really wanted to kill the Archive, she could (and would) have easily assembled a way more powerful force (e.g. sending Santa to abduct the child Archive would have been a cool twist), one that would have a better chance at overpowering the Archive and her protectors..

So if the Hob attack was not meant to kill the Archive, what was its purpose?

One possible answer is that all this is simply "warning shot" for the Archive.  Sending a bunch of Hobs to attack her is essentially Mab's way of telling her "Someone is up to no good. Take extra precautions."  One could even say that those clothes thrown around the aquarium to obscure Ivy's smell is a precuation taken by Kincaid as a direct result of this obscure warning. 

4) The Shedd

I've already mentioned Nic's tardiness, but here's another interestingly shaped puzzle piece:

Uriel gives Harry access to Soulfire in this scene (presumably as a reward for resisting Lash), but we need to remember that the only reason he could intervene in this manner on the first place is because Hell had already intevened in the form of the uber-pentegram.  In fact, if you take events in strict linear time, the Soulfire-hand takes place before the second uber-pentegram actually materializes, and so this intervention has to "counterbalance" the first pentegram (the one used to capture Marcone).

Basically it boils down to this:  If Mab wants her future Knight to get access to soulfire, she needs to offer enough bait in front of the Denarians to entice them to break certain cosmic laws -- thus allowing Uriel to counterbalance them with the offer of Soulfire.  Good enough motive for Mab to set all this up?

Another interesting point about the Shedd is that it seems that Harry actually messed up here by charging into the Circle.  Consider that the uber-pentagram couldn't stay up that long; in our timeline it comes down maybe seconds after the Archive is abducted (remember also that Denarians express a worry onscreen that might not be able to find Ivy in time).  If:

a) Harry had never realized Nic was stalling him.
b) Harry had not gotten up the nerve to charge into the Circle.
c) Harry had the sense to stay hidden longer and not take a cheap shot at Tessa.
d) Ivy didn't care about Harry enough to save him at the expense of her freedom --

Kincaid and Ivy might have been able to run out the time on the Circle and Ivy would never have been abducted.  Once the Circle came down, it would have been a BAD DAY to be a Denarian...

Basically, Harry's good intentions -- i.e. his humanity messed up here.

5)The Island

There are a bunch of interesting things that happen on the Island - not the least of which is the encounter with "Eldest", but I'd like to focus on Harry's "Second Sight" starts coming on, the indication that the Island will be important to his future. 

Take a look at this WoJ:

Quote
How strong is Demonreach compared to Mab, Nicodemus, and all the other antagonists Harry faces?
That’s depending on where you stand. Like literally your GPS coordinates. If you’re in the right spot, don’t mess with Demonreach, and if you’re not, who cares. He’s one of those situations. If you want to go out to that island and play, you better bring your A game, is the way it works out.

...It almost sounds like Demonreach could win an arm-wrestling contest with MAB if she ever came to visit.

Given that Harry has just found out that Demonreach will be important to his future, I think it makes sense that Demonreach also got some indication that Harry was an important figure in its future at the same time...   

Demonreach as an ally (through her future Winter Knight) is certainly a plus for Mab.

EDIT: 

Here's another interesting point:  If the Denarian's original plan was only to abduct Marcone, they didn't really need to build that holding cell on the island.  Thus, if one of Mab's original goals was to introduce Harry to Demonreach, dangling Archive-shaped bait in front of the Denarians is the perfect way do so.  It is the only place in the area that would have the ley-line confluence to be able to build a cell to hold her for any long period of time.  Under Mab's original plan, Ivy would have escaped being captured the Shedd, and then she and Harry would have traveled to the island to free Marcone. 

"Mr. Dresden please meet Demonreach.  Demonreach please meet Dresden."




------------------------------------------------------------>
Let's put all these points together into some coherent narrative:
------------------------------------------------------------>


1) Ever since the events of PG, Mab has been trying to gather allies, gain power against the BC, and get revenge on those who invaded her realm.

2) She knows that the Denarians have long been concocting a plan to abduct Marcone and give him a coin (maybe once he became a Freeholder?).  The notion of capturing Ivy is not in their plans yet. So she makes her move.

3) Mab chooses Harry as emissary - hours before the actual attack takes place.  Maybe just as Demeter tells them about the safe house.  Using a super-pentegram is still not in the picture.

4) Now that Harry is emissary, the Denarians realize that they have a chance of bagging Ivy as well.

5) They hastly change their plans.  The uber-pentegram is not strictly needed to capture someone like Marcone, but they decide to use it anyway - to test it out before using it on Ivy.  It's a last minute change to the plan, but Nic feels the risk is worth prize.

6) Thus, in the initial parley with Harry (when Tessa offers him mantis-smex), the Denarians only "fake attack" (good acting there, sacrificing Akariel...).  The real intention is to get Harry to call in mediation.  Note that Tessa is very careful to mention the Accords a number of times -- all the more to plant the idea in Harry's head to call in the Archive.

7) Mab tries to warn the Archive that the Denarians are after her by sacrificing some troops.  It's a simple "WARNING" sign from Mab.  Kincaid and Ivy take extra pecautions (such as laying clothes everywhere).  Unfortunatly, Kincaid neglects to pack claymore mines.

8 ) At the Shedd, Nic suddenly realizes that his plan is compromised.  From this point on, he begins hedging his bets (staying back).

9) The fact that the Denarians took the bait and broke the rules testing the pentegram on Marcone, means that Uriel gets to give Harry access to soulfire.  Mab dances a jig.

10) The attack on Ivy goes down, but instead of failing - with the Archive proceeding to pulverise the Denarians in retaliation (as Mab intended), Harry steps in and essentially messes everything up and Ivy gets taken.  Bad for Mab, but...

11) Harry goes to the island to rescue Ivy, and in the process Demonreach notices him -- more potential power for Mab's future Knight.

12) The Archive gets rescued after having been abused, holding an even stronger grudge against the Denarians.  Another ally for Mab in the fight against the Black Council.

13) Mab WINS.

---------------

Final note: read this WoJ, see if it fits:
Quote
The thing is that Mab never really figures Dresden quite right.  She never gets it right when she tries to predict what he will do.  But Small Favor turned out really well for her.

Makes you think, doesn't it?

With CD, I think we can make some guess:

1. The hobs at the train station were sent by Maeve to capture the Archive

2. Titania tried to kill Harry out of revenge, not to help the denarians.

3. Thorned Namshiel wanted to kidnap the Archive in order to infect Ivy, and to attack Marcone to weaken the Accords (made by Mab to let her concentrate on the outsiders).

4. Mab, Nemesis arch-ennemy, saw the preparation for Namshiel's big circle (who's infected), so she had to make a countermove.

5. So she chose Harry as her emissary and made a phone call to Uriel, and with some luck she WINS: Namshiel is captured, the Accords are upheld, Ivy is not infected, her knight gets soulfire, DM and Harry meet for the first time.

EDIT: some additional remarks on 'why did she choose Harry?'

At that moment, Mab had no knight, her second in command was frozen in her ice garden, her Lady was a traitor, the bulk of her armies were fighting a war and the rest keeping Summer in check, and any of her troops could be infected. So in fact she had very little ressources to spare, and Harry gave her the most bang for the bucks.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 03:30:48 PM by Serack »
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 10:47:53 PM »
Quote
“Why?” I demanded.  “Why did you want the Denarians stopped?  Why send the hobs to kill the Archive?  Why recruit me to save the Archive and Marcone in the event that the hobs failed?”
Mab paused, turned, casually showing off the gorgeous curves of her calves, and tilted her head at me.  “Nicodemus and his ilk were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning to abuse them to further his ambition.  That was reason enough to see his designs disrupted.  And among the Fallen was one with much to answer for to me, personally, for its attack upon my home.”
“The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said.  “One of them used Hellfire.”
“Mab showed me her snow-white teeth.  “The Watchman and I,” Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by the child Archive.
I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the fallen angel and his master sorceries around as if he’d been a stuffed practice dummy.  “Thorned Namshiel.”
Mab’s eyes flashed with sudden, cold fury and frost literally formed over every surface of the chapel, including upon my own eyelashes.

If you read carefully, Mab does not say that Nicodemus was the reason she acted. The "ennemy" (Nemesis) was.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 10:49:40 PM by Elegast »
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2012, 11:48:09 PM »
If you read carefully, Mab does not say that Nicodemus was the reason she acted. The "ennemy" (Nemesis) was.

wow.
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2012, 11:50:08 PM »
Building on Knnn, here's my explanation of the whole book.

Explaining Small Favor (after Cold Days)
Who moved first?

Not Titania, per WOJ:
Quote from: WOJ
The first are just the newer gruffs, those most recent from being Changelings.  They attacked Harry simply because Mab declared that she had chosen him as her emissary.

Not Uriel, as it's against the Rules.

So either Mab or Nemesis started first.

For me, it seems almost certain that Nemesis made the first move. Mab was in defensive crouch at that moment:
  • her Lady was a traitor
  • Lea, her number two, was imprisoned
  • her knight was a traitor (in jail)
  • the bulk of her army was fighting a major assault
  • the rest of it had to keep Summer at bay
  • she had been attacked by the Reds
  • and by a Fallen, killing even her personal guard
  • and any of her troops could be infected

So Mab was in a very difficult position, facing several attacks at the same time while her main pieces were out of play. Mab's resources were already heavily strained, so I don't see her trying such an immensely dangerous gambit (if she loses the Archive is infected!) in such a weakened state. As we can see in Proven Guilty, she adopts a defensive strategy (remember the troops on the borders of Summer).

On the other hand, Nemesis is ascendant, and has seemingly nothing to lose. So Namshiel has a two part plan:
  • destroying Marcone
  • capturing the Archive

What's the common thread? Both would weaken Mab.

Destroying Marcone

Attacking Marcone was just a way to attack the Accords:
Quote from: Small Favor
She grimaced and began packing another couple inches of intestine back into her abdomen. “The Accords have been breached. A challenge must be lodged. An Emissary summoned. As a Warden”—she gasped for a moment, and then fumbled the glue into place—“you have the authority to call a challenge.”
Quote from: Small Favor
“Yes. Another signatory of the Accords, just as Marcone is now. I have no authority to challenge their actions. But you do. You may be able to force them into the light, bring the pressure of all the members of the Accords against them.
The Accords are enforced by Mab and the signatories. Attacking Marcone was very smart, as Mab was too weak to enforce them, and the other signatories don't care about a random mortal:
Quote from: Small Favor
The Accords don’t mean anything if they aren’t enforced and supported,” I said. “In the long run, it’s in our own best interests to make sure they’re supported now, before a precedent is set and—”

“Don’t bullshit me,” the captain of the Wardens snarled, a hint of an Italian accent creeping into her speech. “If we take formal action it could provoke a war—a war we simply cannot afford. We all know the Red Court is only catching its breath. We can ill afford the losses we’ve already taken, much less those we might assume in a new conflict.”

I made sure to keep my voice steady, grim. “Mab has contacted me personally. She has indicated that it is strongly in our own best interests to intervene.”

It wasn’t exactly a lie.
I hadn’t ever specified who we meant. And with any luck the mention of Mab would keep Luccio’s attention completely. The only reason the Red Court hadn’t wiped us out in the years-long war was that Mab had given the Council right-of-way through the portions of the Nevernever under her control, allowing us wizards to stay as mobile as our opponents, who had considerably less difficulty employing mortal vehicles to maneuver its soldiery.
That part is pure genius. Mab wants to defend her accords, as they allow her to focus on Nemesis:
Quote from: Small Favor
Nicodemus and his ilk were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning to abuse them to further his ambition.  That was reason enough to see his designs disrupted.
but she can't do it herself, so she uses the WC as cat's paw through Harry.

Capturing the Archive

The Archive is incredibly dangerous, and with the new WOJ about the Archive's role in the Oblivion war, it could be also used as a source of Names to bring back all the old horrors. And the Archive resided in a very young girl, so an potentially easy target for the infection.

I think we can say the attack on the Archive was in the plan from the very beginning:
Quote from: Small Favor
No, scratch that. Exactly the way they had for Marcone, I realized. The huge spell that had been used to tear apart the defenses of the crime lord’s panic room hadn’t simply been a way for the Denarians to secure the bait in this scheme. It had been a field test for their means to cut off the magical energy from a large area, and access to the Nevernever with it—and to imprison something big at the same time.
Quote from: Small Favor
I didn’t blame him. Even among professionals this circle was impressive. Lots of luminous, glowing lines and swirls involved, and that always looks fantastic, especially at night. The gold and silver and precious stones didn’t hurt things, either. The light and music show being put on by the chimes and crystals added a wonderful little eerie edge to it all, especially given the grotesque art that framed the interior magical symbology. “This is some upper-tier stuff,” I said quietly. “It will be another century, maybe two, before I’m good enough to come close to this level of work. It’s delicate. One single thing a fraction of an inch out of place and the whole thing goes kablooie. It’s powerful. When you’re putting this together, if any one of a couple of dozen of the power flows slips for even an instant, the whole thing goes out of balance and could go up with enough force to blow the top off of this whole hillside. It took a freaking genius to put this together, Michael.”

So both the field and the prison had been prepared before the whole operation had begun.

Mab has many sources of information, and has been keeping an eye on Namshiel. So she's knows that something huge is about to happen. She must react. Nemesis is her archenemy, so by definition she's going to ruin his day. And letting him weaken the Accords and take Ivy would be a devastating defeat:
Quote from: Small Favor
The enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by the child Archive.

Why does Mab name Harry as her emissary?

I already explained that before. It was the only way for her to enforce the Accords. By bringing Harry as her emissary, she would push the WC into enforcing them.

Obviously, that created a new problem: Harry would call the Archive. However, Mab has a a lot of respect for Uriel, so in a way it was a bonus: by bringing Harry in, she managed to make both the WC and Uriel work for her, and  her knight gained soulfire.

Third reason: she knew the circle was on Demonreach, so calling Harry would also ensure that Harry and DM meet for the first time.

Now, this was not a perfect move, there was still a high risk of failure. But for Mab there was no perfect move: Nemesis had seized the initiative for several years, and Mab was forced to react. She had two possibilities: not naming Harry emissary, and the Accords would have been weakened by Marcone's destruction, or naming Harry and still having a chance of winning the day. Both moves were dangerous, but in the end she got lucky.

The hob attack

Not really sure.

Maybe Maeve did it ( ;)): it was a possibility for Nemesis to capture Ivy and to kill Mab's emissary and future knight, while at the same time spreading distrust toward Mab:
Quote from: Small Favor
“I find it unlikely that an attack of this magnitude could be anything but a deliberate attempt to abduct or assassinate me. Mab and Titania have involved themselves in this business,” the Archive said in a matter-of-fact tone. “Mister Dresden is currently Winter’s Emissary in this affair—and need I remind you that hobs are beholden to Winter—to Mab?”
You note that most infected people tend to slander Mab, and so Nemesis tried to make the Archive doubt her.

Titania

Titania was just an idiot. She sends (WOJ) her minions to counter Mab's minions, and kill the winter emissary, without looking at the big picture.

Two possible explanations (Thx GrandPanjandrum and wildfire393):

- due to a severe breakdown in communication (one millennium since their last conversation ), Titania could not see the big picture

- due to her very nature she had to respond to Mab. Yet her response still let Harry escape in the end (Fix gives him the idea about the leaf).

Nicodemus

The poor man got tricked. He understands it at the Shedd, where he sees that all his actions were in fact in Nemesis's service. Payback will come in Book 15.

Mab WINS

 She wins on everything: Namshiel is captured, the Accords are upheld, Ivy is not infected, her knight gets soulfire, DM and Harry meet for the first time.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:41:11 AM by Elegast »
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2012, 11:58:33 PM »
I think I'll start a Mab Fan club.  ;D


Such a freaking genius. And with style.
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Second Aristh

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3819
  • Numeromancer
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 12:06:42 AM »
I think I'll start a Mab Fan club.  ;D


Such a freaking genius. And with style.
Even with her hands tied, she pulls a major play from thin air.  The Calvin and Hobbes book is a roundabout way of warning Harry that Maeve is sending hobs.  I wonder if Maeve was hiding somewhere nearby and decided to scrap the kidnapping instead of going against everyone at once.  She had to know that the hobs were at best a distraction for Ivy.

*Joins Mab's Fan Club ;D
We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire...Give us the tools, and we will finish the job.--Winston Churchill

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 12:13:24 AM »
Even with her hands tied, she pulls a major play from thin air.

So incredible. She was so weak, and then she just WINS with some bluff and her brains.

/reminds myself never to play poker against Mab...
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 12:21:28 AM by Elegast »
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline GrandPanjandrum

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 922
  • I'm schizophrenic.No you're not.Yes he is. Shutup
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 12:27:51 AM »
Building on Knnn, here's my explanation of the whole book.

Titania

Titania was just an idiot. She send (WOJ) her minions to counter Mab's minions, and kill the winter emissary, without looking at the greater picture.


Not so much idiocy, but dysfunction.  That comment in Cold Days about Titania and Mab not talking since before Hastings comes into play.  They don't communicate AT ALL.  And, I get the impression that Mab has finally realized the weakness and vulnerablity this creates and seeks to remedy it.  Getting rid of Maeve because of her infection is one thing, but replacing her with a bundle of emotional nerves (Sarissa) seems to be an olive branch to Titania, or an invitation to open a dialogue.  Instead, Sarissa ends up in Summer, and Molly is in the role.  And, it's just as well due to her own emotional nature.  Summer is all about emotion.  Winter...pragmatism. 
Disclaimer:  Ate lead paint chips on a regular basis as a child.  Posts reflect degenerative loss of mental acuity.

Offline Silkki

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 12:33:24 AM »
Do we know that Ivy was not infected? I mean she did hint to Harry right way in Changes, breaking neutrality just a bit. Slowly being corrupted and granting Ivy ability to take active role in matters of great importance. (Going against her nature of staying neutral)

Offline Blackblade

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 924
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 12:34:48 AM »
Do we know that Ivy was not infected? I mean she did hint to Harry right way in Changes, breaking neutrality just a bit. Slowly being corrupted and granting Ivy ability to take active role in matters of great importance. (Going against her nature of staying neutral)

That seemed more like Ivy rebelling against the Archive.

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 12:36:56 AM »
Do we know that Ivy was not infected? I mean she did hint to Harry right way in Changes, breaking neutrality just a bit. Slowly being corrupted and granting Ivy ability to take active role in matters of great importance. (Going against her nature of staying neutral)

It's impossible to know. But they had her imprisoned for a short time and she helped Harry in Changes.
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Silkki

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 12:37:12 AM »
That seemed more like Ivy rebelling against the Archive.

Yeah it did. Ivy being a player even on her own is pretty cool, but she might be quite restricted on how much she is able to act. With help from Nemesis she might be able to actually kick some major ass. So here goes hoping that one more young damsel is in trouble and that next time we see her she has grown to be hot, 19 years old superpower with free will, and a huge dilemma with a evil parasite she needs help with.

It's impossible to know. But they had her imprisoned for a short time and she helped Harry in Changes.

Yes, and thus going against her nature ; )

Offline xakko

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1649
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 12:40:14 AM »
Not so much idiocy, but dysfunction.  That comment in Cold Days about Titania and Mab not talking since before Hastings comes into play.  They don't communicate AT ALL.  And, I get the impression that Mab has finally realized the weakness and vulnerablity this creates and seeks to remedy it.  Getting rid of Maeve because of her infection is one thing, but replacing her with a bundle of emotional nerves (Sarissa) seems to be an olive branch to Titania, or an invitation to open a dialogue.  Instead, Sarissa ends up in Summer, and Molly is in the role.  And, it's just as well due to her own emotional nature.  Summer is all about emotion.  Winter...pragmatism. 
Titania had cause to go after the murderer of her daughter (by Harry being emissary).  this is before Eldest Gruff (or was it Elder Gruff) prevailed on her that it was necessary.  She took the shot.

Do we know that Ivy was not infected? I mean she did hint to Harry right way in Changes, breaking neutrality just a bit. Slowly being corrupted and granting Ivy ability to take active role in matters of great importance. (Going against her nature of staying neutral)

Infected Ivy?   :o  Oh crap.

Offline Orbweaver

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4570
  • Let the games begin.
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 12:44:40 AM »
That seemed more like Ivy rebelling against the Archive.

The problem is that in giving Ivy her own identity, he made it possible for Nemesis to amplify the use of her Free Will over the Will of the Archive.

Remember what happened to Mother Winter when she tried to pin Harry down using only her will? It's the same thing... only about a thousand times worse, because Ivy's wishes are not always going to be in line with the Archive's. If any of the Denarians who captured her was corrupted by Nemesis (and I think there's a large likelihood that Namshiel or Rosanna probably were/are), there's a *high* chance that Ivy has Nemesis inside her. Provided that Nemesis uses Ivy to act against the Archive's wishes, the Archive cannot act to override Ivy's free will. It can offer a strong emphasis on what she should do, but that's it.

One other thing to remember about Mab: She only has so many resources. Most of them are committed to the fight at the Gates, but she also has to keep a few at the home base (in case of something like Summer fire being poured into Winter's Wellspring or an uprising like the one Lea tried). The hobs might have been all she could spare to tip someone off that Nemesis was up and running.
In a world of black, white, and grey's... I'd be bright freaking purple. Resident Female Forum Denarian.

Offline Elegast

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2012, 12:48:59 AM »
One other thing to remember about Mab: She only has so many resources. Most of them are committed to the fight at the Gates.

Absolutely. That's the key factor in Small Favor: Mab was almost powerless, with all her minions unavailable.
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files