Speed of thaumaturgy

[HeadWound]

How many exchanges does it take to cast a thaumaturgical spell that is equal to or less than the characters lore rating? Something like opening a way, or even just executing a maneuver.

[Ghsdkgb]

One turn, if his Discipline and Conviction are high enough.

Conviction represents how much power he can put in at once, so if that's equal to his Lore, then he can potentially do it in one roll (using Discipline for the roll). Focus items and mental stress and such can be used to speed this up, if necessary.

[HeadWound]

Thanks, glad you answered in turns instead of exchanges
That is what we thought, but just wanted ask to be sure.

[Tedronai]

One or more minutes.  Alternatively, some number of exchanges representing time not less than one minute.

[Belial666]

Nope. We have seen thaumaturgy used fast enough for single combat exchanges. Even fast enough for its effects to intercept projectiles that would kill the caster if it took more than a fraction of a second to work the spell.

Generally speaking, a spell that requires a magic circle or other thaumaturgic frame needs 1 exchange to set the circle/frame, 1 exchange to set the complexity of the thaumaturgic construct and 1 exchange to call and control the power needing to cast it (assuming you can do everything in the minimum time). Such spells are usually the complex thaumaturgies like summoning, conjuration, warding, necromancy.

However, a spell that doesn't require a basic construct could be done in a single exchange, thaumaturgy or no thaumaturgy or even as a readied action. Such spells would be primarily Worldwalking and Transformation/Disruption, as seen multiple times in the books. For example, Harry Dresden opens a gateway between himself and a falling ceiling so the falling ceiling drops into the gateway and doesn't crush him. Listens to Wind shapechanges equally fast and some people can throw curses mid-combat (that aren't death curses)

[Tedronai]

Unless, of course, you read and pay attention to YS (ie. the rules), and the explicit statement therein supporting what I said.  Of course, if you're dealing with houserules, you can have it take as much or as little time as you like.

[Haru]

As soon as you take up sponsored magic, you can evothaum, and the whole thing is moot. I am also pretty open to "self sponsoring" as a way to describe someone who has become extremely specialized in something. I think Sanctaphrax has something like that in the custom power list.

For thaum in conflict, I would always give it at least some disadvantage, mostly regarding time. So if you have a thaumaturgy ritual, that you can control in one exchange, I would have the effect go off just before the casters action in the next exchange. The whole rest of the time, he has to be focused on the ritual, and his defense drops to mediocre automatically (you can't really dodge when you are standing in a circle drawing in magical energy). If he is hit for at least one shift of stress (or maybe with a maneuver), the ritual will instantly go towards fallout. Fine with small rituals, but if you try to do something big, and you are in the third exchange and have already gathered a good amount of power, it is going to be bad.

Also, I would probably require you to put up a circle aspect first. If you don't, you could offset it by increasing the complexity of the spell by 2.

[blackstaff67]

Actually, given the example of Harry trying to channel energy for a Thaumaturgic Ritual due to something banging on the door, I believe it actually said exchanges--see YS271."Harry is ready to cast a spell with a complexity of 10.  With his Conviction of Superb he can channel 5 shifts of power per exchange easily...Jim can play it safe and divide it up into 10 separate rolls...but that's 10 exchanges and with the thing hammering at his door he's not sure Harry had that kind of time.  Jim tries to wrap it up in three exchanges..."

[Tedronai]

The rules explicitly require at least one minute.
Houserule as you will.

[Belial666]

The rules explicitly require at least one minute.
Houserule as you will.

No need to houserule. The rules also say that an exchange reflects enough time for an action - from a few moments to a minute. So that hypothetical "minute" can be a single exchange.


That's on top of having seen people in the books (harry included) opening gateways or shapeshifting via magic or doing location or communication spells in a few moments or even instantly.

[Tedronai]

So, you've changed your mind, Belial?

One or more minutes.  Alternatively, some number of exchanges representing time not less than one minute.

Nope.[...]

[Belial666]

No. I'm just pointing out how ineffectual it would be to insist to the "one minute" of rules-as-written when the same rules say that an exchange is not a fixed amount of time. Any player could say that their exchange is a minute long if they wanted to if we stuck to the letter of the rules.

[Tedronai]

No, they couldn't.  Individual players do not independantly determine the length of their exchanges, and even less so for individual exchanges.

[Belial666]

But does your "rules-as-written" say so?

Besides, it's not as if one using thaumaturgy in combat has to cast it in combat too. Triggered spells -spells cast in advance and set to activate on specific conditions- are doable. A wizard in his sanctum that has a couple hundred landmines and triggered effects set up could hold off entire armies. A guy that has cast five-six runes on his axe that, for example, deflect enemy attacks when triggered could hold his/her own against a much more powerful opponent for a time.

[Mr. Death]

"No less than a minute" makes little sense given what we're shown as examples in the game books, and the regular books. If you needed at least a minute to cast any kind of thaumaturgic spell, Harry would be dead at least twice over--no getting up a circle in Storm Front to protect him from the frog demon, no setting up the ritual to have the ghosts kill the Red Court in Grave Peril.